New Kilij

M.carter · 18th June 2005, 02:34 AM

There is high probability that these thin kilijs are syrian, or even egyptian. Yet very little is known about these kilijs.

Whatever it is, its sweeeeeeet!

ham · 18th June 2005, 04:54 AM

Gentlemen,

This is Ottoman of the first half of the 19th century, the blade Persian and probably watered. It is provincial work, not done in Istanbul but perhaps in Suria or Egypt as M. Carter observes. As you know the cross would typically be secured by pitch, so stabilizing it would best be accomplished with a similar compound. It is difficult to tell from the images but the guard appears to be reversed 180 degrees in the plane of the quillons-- does it fit the scabbard properly when sheathed? If not, you might try flipping it.
The suspension system appears complete, it would be hung across the right shoulder and suspended on the left hip, cutting edge out. Appears to be a nice complete example.

Sincerely,

Ham

M.carter · 18th June 2005, 08:06 AM

It is almost impossible that the hilt slabs are insecure, as they are secured with rivets, so I would assume that the only wobbly part is the crossguard.

That can easily be fixed, first you must get some cutlers resin, or make some yourself. I usually make it out of pitch, beesewax, pinon rosin and steel dust. Melt the beesewax then add all the other ingredients on top carefully (very flammable stuff) then mix them all.

Secure the crossguard in its place, and cover the bottom openings of it with something (tape perhaps) as to not let the resin flow out. Then while the resin is hot and liquid, pour it into the crossguard, and let it cool quickly. Take the tape of the bottom after its cooled, and clean of any extra resin.

M.carter · 18th June 2005, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

Gentlemen,

This is Ottoman of the first half of the 19th century, the blade Persian and probably watered. It is provincial work, not done in Istanbul but perhaps in Suria or Egypt as M. Carter observes. As you know the cross would typically be secured by pitch, so stabilizing it would best be accomplished with a similar compound. It is difficult to tell from the images but the guard appears to be reversed 180 degrees in the plane of the quillons-- does it fit the scabbard properly when sheathed? If not, you might try flipping it.
The suspension system appears complete, it would be hung across the right shoulder and suspended on the left hip, cutting edge out. Appears to be a nice complete example.

Sincerely,

Ham

Ham, what makes you think that this is a Persian blade.

tom hyle · 18th June 2005, 11:34 AM

Rivetted scales get loose all the time; the main culprits are trauma and warping/expanding/shrinking of the fibrous organnic grip material from moisture exchange (mostly with the air). This type of sword tends to have a short (ie not full length) flat tang that may or may not be full width, rivetted to a plate that is soldered to the tangband. An arrangement like this seems more liable to wiggling than a true flat tang. If you don't want to tighten the rivets (and the holes may be wallowed out; one sure looks it, which complicates this) I suppose you might explore if you can do any good with wedges, shims, or injected adhesive/filler of some sort.
M Carter; what kind of pitch do you start with, and where do you get it, please

To the side, I have seen the pitch inside a tulwar handle be stabilized re-bar style with a matrix of wiggly copper wire.
Is a false edge that is not "dropped" (ie widened) a yelman? I have always heard and read the term yelman in association with the dropped edge.

M.carter · 18th June 2005, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Rivetted scales get loose all the time; the main culprits are trauma and warping/expanding/shrinking of the fibrous organnic grip material from moisture exchange (mostly with the air). This type of sword tends to have a short (ie not full length) flat tang that may or may not be full width, rivetted to a plate that is soldered to the tangband. An arrangement like this seems more liable to wiggling than a true flat tang. If you don't want to tighten the rivets (and the holes may be wallowed out; one sure looks it, which complicates this) I suppose you might explore if you can do any good with wedges, shims, or injected adhesive/filler of some sort.
M Carter; what kind of pitch do you start with, and where do you get it, please

To the side, I have seen the pitch inside a tulwar handle be stabilized re-bar style with a matrix of wiggly copper wire.
Is a false edge that is not "dropped" (ie widened) a yelman? I have always heard and read the term yelman in association with the dropped edge.

Well thats certainly interesting!

Ive never handled a sword with a riveted hilt that was loose (except for crossguards). I get my pitch from an industrial area over here in kuwait. Its black, oily and very smelly I must say.

Rick · 18th June 2005, 03:58 PM

Mark , how did the re-mount of the tulwar blade work out ?
Nice and snug now ?

The grip scales on my karud are as tight as when they were placed there some 150-200 years ago .
They were applied with mastic and rivets .
I have seen some examples of loose grip scales but usually these are on knives/swords that depended solely on rivets to hold them on , many of the scales being wood .

M.carter · 18th June 2005, 04:51 PM

Well, it was a messy affair trying to get the resin inside the hilt, but there it is, on my school desk, drying, I shall touch it again tommorow, see how good it is.

ariel · 18th June 2005, 05:03 PM

Gentlemen, is there a synthetic material easily obtainable in legitimate stores that could be used to fix the crossguard? I shudder to imagine myself boiling an explosive mix of exotic and flammable ingredients in our kitchen. I will be kicked out of the house by She Who Must Be Obeyed if I even mention doing something like that ("....eye of newt and toe of frog, wool of bat and tongue of dog...")
The Syrian/Egyptian origin is entirely feasible: I have a Syrian Shamshir with very similar fuller arrangement. I cleaned he blade after I got it (was quite dirty and even had a faint patches of active rust) and did emergency oiling. I'll try to clean it better and may even try to etch it a bit to look for damascus pattern.
As to the wobbly handle, the scales are just a little wobbly: the lower rivet is not very secure and, I guess, the horn got a little shrunken and deformed after so many years. If I can pour some glue-ish compound into the crossguard, it wll certainly solve the scales problem as well.

ham · 18th June 2005, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.carter

Ham, what makes you think that this is a Persian blade.

This is a variant of 19th century Persian export blade. There is an excellent article by Oliver Pinchot which discusses them in detail, however it is hard to come by.
As far as stabilizing the guard, we have used modelling clay as an expedient and reversible fixitive for many years now with positive results.

Sincerely,

Ham

ariel · 18th June 2005, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

This is a variant of 19th century Persian export blade. There is an excellent article by Oliver Pinchot which discusses them in detail, however it is hard to come by.
As far as stabilizing the guard, we have used modelling clay as an expedient and reversible fixitive for many years now with positive results.

Sincerely,

Ham

Good idea. How strong are they? Do they come in black color?
Any more "permanent" fixative?

ariel · 18th June 2005, 06:38 PM

Some time ago Artzi posted on SFI a series of pics showing restoration of a Kilij handle
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001866.html

He used some kind of adhesive to attach the scales; what was it? Can the same material be used for the crossguard?

tom hyle · 18th June 2005, 07:30 PM

SFI? That link's to the Vikingsword forum? Pics are gone, and was there more text about the process? Seems to be some missing information in trying to establish a logical sequence to the posts; were the pictures that good, that textual conclusions came from them? Or was there an SFI link at one time or something? Didn't he use pitch as the adhesive for the scales/to level the area between the tang bands? I think he used some sort of epoxy to fill a void or warped hollow, but not as the actual adhesive; am I misremembering?
As to loose scales, I can only testify that they are common, and point out that anyone who hasn't seen them before, has seen some now. It is axiomatic in woodworking that the warpage of wood is an unstoppable force and will ultimately overcome any adhesive, when the two are opposed (one tries to avoid opposing them for this reason; a positive mechanical joint is often preferred, but even so will often sucumb.....). Thus, though the power of the adhesive (and particularly perhaps its elasticity in the case of pitch; but I've seen old pitch that was still holding, and other that had failed) may be of some influence, and the pins, if tight and rivetted will also restrain movement in varying degree (with their hardness, thickness, etc.), the main reason some old scales are going to be tight with an even, nonopen joint, tight rivets, uncracked, etc. is that either due to planning/knowledge, circumstances, sealing, or the nature of the material (most extreme example; stone, including metal), they have not tried very hard to warp. If they had, no adhesive is known to hold them (and I for one have seen numbers of scales that had come unadhered with warpage), and as to the pins, the warping wood sometimes tends to bend them (yes, that's right; if they are thin/soft) and/or crack around them when it warps much. Another common type of warpage, that often leaves a handle tight or tolerably tight, is (often wavy) warpage that makes a space between scale and tang. If the common rivetted joint between tang and pommel-plate is loose, or that of the tang bands, you'd be in worse trouble, of course.

18th June 2005, 02:34 AM	#1
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	There is high probability that these thin kilijs are syrian, or even egyptian. Yet very little is known about these kilijs. Whatever it is, its sweeeeeeet!

18th June 2005, 04:54 AM	#2
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, This is Ottoman of the first half of the 19th century, the blade Persian and probably watered. It is provincial work, not done in Istanbul but perhaps in Suria or Egypt as M. Carter observes. As you know the cross would typically be secured by pitch, so stabilizing it would best be accomplished with a similar compound. It is difficult to tell from the images but the guard appears to be reversed 180 degrees in the plane of the quillons-- does it fit the scabbard properly when sheathed? If not, you might try flipping it. The suspension system appears complete, it would be hung across the right shoulder and suspended on the left hip, cutting edge out. Appears to be a nice complete example. Sincerely, Ham

18th June 2005, 08:06 AM	#3
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	It is almost impossible that the hilt slabs are insecure, as they are secured with rivets, so I would assume that the only wobbly part is the crossguard. That can easily be fixed, first you must get some cutlers resin, or make some yourself. I usually make it out of pitch, beesewax, pinon rosin and steel dust. Melt the beesewax then add all the other ingredients on top carefully (very flammable stuff) then mix them all. Secure the crossguard in its place, and cover the bottom openings of it with something (tape perhaps) as to not let the resin flow out. Then while the resin is hot and liquid, pour it into the crossguard, and let it cool quickly. Take the tape of the bottom after its cooled, and clean of any extra resin.

18th June 2005, 11:34 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Rivetted scales get loose all the time; the main culprits are trauma and warping/expanding/shrinking of the fibrous organnic grip material from moisture exchange (mostly with the air). This type of sword tends to have a short (ie not full length) flat tang that may or may not be full width, rivetted to a plate that is soldered to the tangband. An arrangement like this seems more liable to wiggling than a true flat tang. If you don't want to tighten the rivets (and the holes may be wallowed out; one sure looks it, which complicates this) I suppose you might explore if you can do any good with wedges, shims, or injected adhesive/filler of some sort. M Carter; what kind of pitch do you start with, and where do you get it, please To the side, I have seen the pitch inside a tulwar handle be stabilized re-bar style with a matrix of wiggly copper wire. Is a false edge that is not "dropped" (ie widened) a yelman? I have always heard and read the term yelman in association with the dropped edge.

18th June 2005, 03:58 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Mark , how did the re-mount of the tulwar blade work out ? Nice and snug now ? The grip scales on my karud are as tight as when they were placed there some 150-200 years ago . They were applied with mastic and rivets . I have seen some examples of loose grip scales but usually these are on knives/swords that depended solely on rivets to hold them on , many of the scales being wood .

18th June 2005, 04:51 PM	#8
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Well, it was a messy affair trying to get the resin inside the hilt, but there it is, on my school desk, drying, I shall touch it again tommorow, see how good it is.

18th June 2005, 05:03 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Gentlemen, is there a synthetic material easily obtainable in legitimate stores that could be used to fix the crossguard? I shudder to imagine myself boiling an explosive mix of exotic and flammable ingredients in our kitchen. I will be kicked out of the house by She Who Must Be Obeyed if I even mention doing something like that ("....eye of newt and toe of frog, wool of bat and tongue of dog...") The Syrian/Egyptian origin is entirely feasible: I have a Syrian Shamshir with very similar fuller arrangement. I cleaned he blade after I got it (was quite dirty and even had a faint patches of active rust) and did emergency oiling. I'll try to clean it better and may even try to etch it a bit to look for damascus pattern. As to the wobbly handle, the scales are just a little wobbly: the lower rivet is not very secure and, I guess, the horn got a little shrunken and deformed after so many years. If I can pour some glue-ish compound into the crossguard, it wll certainly solve the scales problem as well.

18th June 2005, 06:38 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Some time ago Artzi posted on SFI a series of pics showing restoration of a Kilij handle http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001866.html He used some kind of adhesive to attach the scales; what was it? Can the same material be used for the crossguard?

18th June 2005, 07:30 PM	#13
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	SFI? That link's to the Vikingsword forum? Pics are gone, and was there more text about the process? Seems to be some missing information in trying to establish a logical sequence to the posts; were the pictures that good, that textual conclusions came from them? Or was there an SFI link at one time or something? Didn't he use pitch as the adhesive for the scales/to level the area between the tang bands? I think he used some sort of epoxy to fill a void or warped hollow, but not as the actual adhesive; am I misremembering? As to loose scales, I can only testify that they are common, and point out that anyone who hasn't seen them before, has seen some now. It is axiomatic in woodworking that the warpage of wood is an unstoppable force and will ultimately overcome any adhesive, when the two are opposed (one tries to avoid opposing them for this reason; a positive mechanical joint is often preferred, but even so will often sucumb.....). Thus, though the power of the adhesive (and particularly perhaps its elasticity in the case of pitch; but I've seen old pitch that was still holding, and other that had failed) may be of some influence, and the pins, if tight and rivetted will also restrain movement in varying degree (with their hardness, thickness, etc.), the main reason some old scales are going to be tight with an even, nonopen joint, tight rivets, uncracked, etc. is that either due to planning/knowledge, circumstances, sealing, or the nature of the material (most extreme example; stone, including metal), they have not tried very hard to warp. If they had, no adhesive is known to hold them (and I for one have seen numbers of scales that had come unadhered with warpage), and as to the pins, the warping wood sometimes tends to bend them (yes, that's right; if they are thin/soft) and/or crack around them when it warps much. Another common type of warpage, that often leaves a handle tight or tolerably tight, is (often wavy) warpage that makes a space between scale and tang. If the common rivetted joint between tang and pommel-plate is loose, or that of the tang bands, you'd be in worse trouble, of course.