Basket hilted backsword

Ron Anderson · 14th October 2010, 12:24 AM

Hi Norman

Thanks for that.

I can see your point about the style of the blade being 19th century. I am quite familiar with the regulation pattern British swords. It isn't a 1796 pattern blade. And I don't think it's a cavalry blade from the 1821 pattern.

It's possible it's an imported blade, from Solingen perhaps as Jim suggests. But then it certainly wasn't employed in the British army as a regulation cavalry pattern in the 19th century.

So while the blade and the fuller does remind me too of blades of the period you suggest (early to mid 19th century), I believe it must be pre-1798. That would make sense to me of the fact that it resembles the 1798 pattern Scottish broadsword hilt.

I'm leaning towards it being very late 18th century, certainly before 1798.

The wire hilt seems to suggest much earlier, surprisingly, as does the pommel.

I would be surprised if this sword was not military, given the length and quality of the blade. But it seems to pre-date the arrival of the regulation patterns.

That's the best I can do at the moment.

But Maybe it belonged to some sort of yeomanry unit with a Scottish background.

That could place it into the 19th century perhaps.

I say this with reservation because I think Yeomanry swords would surely have had a variation of an existing blade pattern anyway.

Cathey · 14th October 2010, 02:36 AM

Hi Ron,

interesting view. When Rex and I started collecting we where fortunate to have assistance from a number of extremely experienced and well read collectors of old swords. The first thing they taught us is it is not so much how it looks but how it feels in the hand, which is why it is so hard to be certain from a photograph. Swords where made to be used in battle or made for the wealthy as part of there decorative wardrobe (or watching the battle from a safe distance).

My experience with Victorian copies and/or other display swords is that they are usually extremely ornate and well made, what gives them away is the complete lack of balance in the hand and in many cases signs of post industrial revolution manufacturing techniques i.e modern welds.

In the case of this rapier, after expert advice we know it was manufactured using the hammer and forge pre industrial technique. The sword is exceptionally well balanced in the hand and the blade far longer than anything I have seen on a copy to date. Of course a copy it could still be, however I am also reminded of a tale of two long time friends and well respected experts who fell out for the rest of there lives over a difference of opinion on the authenticity of a sword in the Wallace collection.

To buy or not to buy that is the question, I think if we can secure it for something close to the cost of a good Victorian copy it may be worth the risk.

Cheers Cathey

Ron Anderson · 14th October 2010, 03:22 AM

Hi Cathey

I would agree. The price is the pertinent factor here and I don't have that information.

I am not an expert in early swords.

There are obviously different grades of weapon, among both real early pieces and Victorian copies.

This makes authentification all the harder.

So I prefer to err on the side of caution.

But I would take a small risk if the the price was right. Certainly.

14th October 2010, 02:36 AM	#2
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Victorian Copies - Rapier? Hi Ron, interesting view. When Rex and I started collecting we where fortunate to have assistance from a number of extremely experienced and well read collectors of old swords. The first thing they taught us is it is not so much how it looks but how it feels in the hand, which is why it is so hard to be certain from a photograph. Swords where made to be used in battle or made for the wealthy as part of there decorative wardrobe (or watching the battle from a safe distance). My experience with Victorian copies and/or other display swords is that they are usually extremely ornate and well made, what gives them away is the complete lack of balance in the hand and in many cases signs of post industrial revolution manufacturing techniques i.e modern welds. In the case of this rapier, after expert advice we know it was manufactured using the hammer and forge pre industrial technique. The sword is exceptionally well balanced in the hand and the blade far longer than anything I have seen on a copy to date. Of course a copy it could still be, however I am also reminded of a tale of two long time friends and well respected experts who fell out for the rest of there lives over a difference of opinion on the authenticity of a sword in the Wallace collection. To buy or not to buy that is the question, I think if we can secure it for something close to the cost of a good Victorian copy it may be worth the risk. Cheers Cathey

14th October 2010, 12:24 AM	#1
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Norman Thanks for that. I can see your point about the style of the blade being 19th century. I am quite familiar with the regulation pattern British swords. It isn't a 1796 pattern blade. And I don't think it's a cavalry blade from the 1821 pattern. It's possible it's an imported blade, from Solingen perhaps as Jim suggests. But then it certainly wasn't employed in the British army as a regulation cavalry pattern in the 19th century. So while the blade and the fuller does remind me too of blades of the period you suggest (early to mid 19th century), I believe it must be pre-1798. That would make sense to me of the fact that it resembles the 1798 pattern Scottish broadsword hilt. I'm leaning towards it being very late 18th century, certainly before 1798. The wire hilt seems to suggest much earlier, surprisingly, as does the pommel. I would be surprised if this sword was not military, given the length and quality of the blade. But it seems to pre-date the arrival of the regulation patterns. That's the best I can do at the moment. But Maybe it belonged to some sort of yeomanry unit with a Scottish background. That could place it into the 19th century perhaps. I say this with reservation because I think Yeomanry swords would surely have had a variation of an existing blade pattern anyway.

14th October 2010, 03:22 AM	#3
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Cathey I would agree. The price is the pertinent factor here and I don't have that information. I am not an expert in early swords. There are obviously different grades of weapon, among both real early pieces and Victorian copies. This makes authentification all the harder. So I prefer to err on the side of caution. But I would take a small risk if the the price was right. Certainly.