hidden room 2 - captured arms

Aqtai · 17th June 2005, 06:34 PM

Thanks Brian. Very nice helmet. I see why you thinnk the one in Venice may have originally looked like this.

I have seen a picture of a very similar Mamluk helmet in the Topkapi Museum attributed to Khayrbek, the last Mamluk governor of Aleppo, the one who betrayed the mamluks to the Ottomans and was rewarded by being made Ottoman governor of Egypt after the Ottoman conquest.

Edit: I have just found a picture of that helmet, please excuse the quality, it's a bad photocopy of a very old book. H. R. Robinson has pictures of the same two helmets in his book, he calls this rounded style a muwa'ama (A very Arabic sounding name) and attributes it to Khayrbek.

wolviex · 17th June 2005, 07:30 PM

Thank you for these pictures Brian. If you are travelling through the Europe remember Krakow - just let me know if you'll be passing by, and I'll open my doors for you

Just a few reflections. Watching these beautiful Turkish armament I have a strange feeling, because all of these objects are very familiar to me. Most of them were used in Poland as usual armament, parade armament and of course as the war-trophies. Contacts amongst Poland and Turkey were very wide during 16th-18th centuries, and those who are lucky to have "War and Peace" catalogue, know very well what I'm talking about. Anyway, many of the objects like these are well represented in Polish museums as well. But what astonished me, is the amount of kalkan-shields. Great collection, uncomparable with anything in Poland.

Thank you one more time!

B.I · 17th June 2005, 07:49 PM

hi michal,
i must admit, i had thought of you when i created this post and was waiting for you to notice :-)
yes, it was the shields that stunned me as well, as its the sheer amount (4 long displays) of such a rare item. and the condition is wonderful.
dont worry, i have the city guide you kindly sent me and will start dropping hints to my girlfriend when appropriate. it goes without saying, that the doors will be jammed open should you make it to london. the helmet aqtai and i were discussing left its make on both polish and hungarian design, and it seems that both the mamluks and ottomans were the leaders of fashion for many years.
the 'war and peace' exhibition was one of real excellence and shows the quality and importance of the pieces in poland. you will be interested to konw that there will be an exhibition in paris, planned for next year which will be on early islamic arms, with a large amount of important turkish pieces. i cant offer any more details as yet, as the collection is privately owned but it will have a full catalogue, written by one of the leading authorities on islamic arms. will definately post more when i can, with enough notice for people to plan their holidays to suit :-)
aqtai, i have attached more images of the helmet type, which helps to bolster my theory about its altered state.
however, all good theories have a way of falling flat on its face, and i have included a line drawing, which show the peak section attached by a linkage system, which means its free-moving, just like the venice piece.
so, there is an option that the helmet was created like this, but i still feel it doesnt seem right.

wolviex · 17th June 2005, 08:59 PM

Brian: as far as I know, there will also in Paris great Persian exhibition in 2007. There is a chance there will be objects from my museum as well, because I was asked for some of them.

If you mentioned the influence of Turkish helmets on Hungarian and Polish ones, it is worth of mentione, that those were of the conical shape. Some of them were made as a tournament or for parade purposes in Germany as well, just like one from my museum, made in Nurnberg. And by the way - Polish classical hussar zischagge is very similiar to those Turkish helmets presented on your pictures

. But this is off-topic.

Aqtai · 17th June 2005, 09:12 PM

Thanks for those pics Brian. I see you found the helmet i was talking about.

That exhibition on Early Islamic armour in Paris sounds fascinating, however I can't see my wife agrreing to me disappearing to paris for a weekend. I never even got to see the Turks! exhibition at the RA, and that was only in london.

Wolviex, there is no doubt that the Ottomans did have a strong influence on Polish, Hungarian and Russian armour. I have noticed that The decoration on Polish shishaks/chichaks/zischagges however is more European and quite distinct from the Turkish helmets.

wolviex · 17th June 2005, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aqtai

Wolviex, there is no doubt that the Ottomans did have a strong influence on Polish, Hungarian and Russian armour. I have noticed that The decoration on Polish shishaks/chichaks/zischagges however is more European and quite distinct from the Turkish helmets.

yes it is, no doubt, especially when we are talking about hussars armament, you can find there strictly Polish decoration and some features. But the shape, overall, is very similiar. 1st pic is the Hungarian type zischagge from German workshop, I have mentioned in the post above, 2nd is the hussars zischagge - compare its shape with the Brian's just posted pics. This one unfortunatelly is quite late, because from the 18th century, so 100 years after the "classical period", but suprisingly it is in classical shape, what was uncommon in those days.

Regards

B.I · 17th June 2005, 10:50 PM

michal,
they are great examples that you show. the german helmet has the mail attached, as we discussed earlier.
reminds me of the ernst schmidt story about hussar helmets :-)
aqtai,
i have never met a woman yet that would turn down a trip to paris, even if it meant sacrificing a day in a boring old museum.
the turks exhibition in the RA was stunning. i got there twice and i have never been more impressed by an exhibition than i was here, both times. it had the best of the best and there was a real surprise for me, in a sword i knew well from photographs was in the 'flesh' for the first time and it was twice the size i had thought it was (mehmet 2nds sword). breathtaking!

Rivkin · 17th June 2005, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aqtai

Thanks Brian. Very nice helmet. I see why you thinnk the one in Venice may have originally looked like this.

I have seen a picture of a very similar Mamluk helmet in the Topkapi Museum attributed to Khayrbek, the last Mamluk governor of Aleppo, the one who betrayed the mamluks to the Ottomans and was rewarded by being made Ottoman governor of Egypt after the Ottoman conquest.

I don't know nothing about non-caucasian arms, so my input would not be very valuable, but I've seen a georgian helmet, supposedly early XVIII century, just like the one in the museum. Unfortunately I don't remeber where I've seen it.

Concerning Khayrbek, he was a Georgian and a lot of people (inluding Ibn-Iyas) suspected that he simply disliked Circassians, therefore choosing Ottomans over them.

17th June 2005, 06:34 PM	#1
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Thanks Brian. Very nice helmet. I see why you thinnk the one in Venice may have originally looked like this. I have seen a picture of a very similar Mamluk helmet in the Topkapi Museum attributed to Khayrbek, the last Mamluk governor of Aleppo, the one who betrayed the mamluks to the Ottomans and was rewarded by being made Ottoman governor of Egypt after the Ottoman conquest. Edit: I have just found a picture of that helmet, please excuse the quality, it's a bad photocopy of a very old book. H. R. Robinson has pictures of the same two helmets in his book, he calls this rounded style a muwa'ama (A very Arabic sounding name) and attributes it to Khayrbek. Last edited by Aqtai; 17th June 2005 at 06:48 PM.

17th June 2005, 07:49 PM	#3
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi michal, i must admit, i had thought of you when i created this post and was waiting for you to notice :-) yes, it was the shields that stunned me as well, as its the sheer amount (4 long displays) of such a rare item. and the condition is wonderful. dont worry, i have the city guide you kindly sent me and will start dropping hints to my girlfriend when appropriate. it goes without saying, that the doors will be jammed open should you make it to london. the helmet aqtai and i were discussing left its make on both polish and hungarian design, and it seems that both the mamluks and ottomans were the leaders of fashion for many years. the 'war and peace' exhibition was one of real excellence and shows the quality and importance of the pieces in poland. you will be interested to konw that there will be an exhibition in paris, planned for next year which will be on early islamic arms, with a large amount of important turkish pieces. i cant offer any more details as yet, as the collection is privately owned but it will have a full catalogue, written by one of the leading authorities on islamic arms. will definately post more when i can, with enough notice for people to plan their holidays to suit :-) aqtai, i have attached more images of the helmet type, which helps to bolster my theory about its altered state. however, all good theories have a way of falling flat on its face, and i have included a line drawing, which show the peak section attached by a linkage system, which means its free-moving, just like the venice piece. so, there is an option that the helmet was created like this, but i still feel it doesnt seem right. Attached Images

17th June 2005, 07:30 PM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you for these pictures Brian. If you are travelling through the Europe remember Krakow - just let me know if you'll be passing by, and I'll open my doors for you Just a few reflections. Watching these beautiful Turkish armament I have a strange feeling, because all of these objects are very familiar to me. Most of them were used in Poland as usual armament, parade armament and of course as the war-trophies. Contacts amongst Poland and Turkey were very wide during 16th-18th centuries, and those who are lucky to have "War and Peace" catalogue, know very well what I'm talking about. Anyway, many of the objects like these are well represented in Polish museums as well. But what astonished me, is the amount of kalkan-shields. Great collection, uncomparable with anything in Poland. Thank you one more time!

17th June 2005, 08:59 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Brian: as far as I know, there will also in Paris great Persian exhibition in 2007. There is a chance there will be objects from my museum as well, because I was asked for some of them. If you mentioned the influence of Turkish helmets on Hungarian and Polish ones, it is worth of mentione, that those were of the conical shape. Some of them were made as a tournament or for parade purposes in Germany as well, just like one from my museum, made in Nurnberg. And by the way - Polish classical hussar zischagge is very similiar to those Turkish helmets presented on your pictures . But this is off-topic.

17th June 2005, 09:12 PM	#5
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Thanks for those pics Brian. I see you found the helmet i was talking about. That exhibition on Early Islamic armour in Paris sounds fascinating, however I can't see my wife agrreing to me disappearing to paris for a weekend. I never even got to see the Turks! exhibition at the RA, and that was only in london. Wolviex, there is no doubt that the Ottomans did have a strong influence on Polish, Hungarian and Russian armour. I have noticed that The decoration on Polish shishaks/chichaks/zischagges however is more European and quite distinct from the Turkish helmets.

17th June 2005, 10:50 PM	#7
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	michal, they are great examples that you show. the german helmet has the mail attached, as we discussed earlier. reminds me of the ernst schmidt story about hussar helmets :-) aqtai, i have never met a woman yet that would turn down a trip to paris, even if it meant sacrificing a day in a boring old museum. the turks exhibition in the RA was stunning. i got there twice and i have never been more impressed by an exhibition than i was here, both times. it had the best of the best and there was a real surprise for me, in a sword i knew well from photographs was in the 'flesh' for the first time and it was twice the size i had thought it was (mehmet 2nds sword). breathtaking!