vikingsword?!? ID needed

cornelistromp · 11th October 2010, 06:42 PM

Hi Michael,

you are absolutely right about the description it is by no means a katzbalger degen or landsknecht degen. This type of sword belongs indeed to the German sword style of estoc.
As you definitely know as well they are produced in Graz, Judenberg and Passau. there are a number of examples preserved in the Grazer Zeughaus. also these type of estocs were carried by Austrian harquebusiers and Hungarian hussars on horseback. in the wars with the Turks.
about the date we disagree..................... why not

The closed 8 ring guard is a later development of the open 8 guard.
the later estocs also have an integral cap at the quillion block covering the ricasso to keep water out of the scabbard and sometimes also an octagonal guard plate.
I think that the estocs with closed ringguards and scabbard throats can be dated in the second half of the 16thC, Also the Giegh/Visser one

and the open 8 shaped quards with the caps in the first half of the 16thC.(similar as the developement of the katzbalger hilt in the 16thC)
lit:P.Krenn 1997 pp30-31

kind regards from Holland

Matchlock · 11th October 2010, 07:00 PM

Agreed!

Best regards from Bavaria,
Michael

Jeff Pringle · 15th October 2010, 09:36 AM

Just ran across this article while googling for something else, could it be a version of this pommel type?

hrcak.srce.hr/file/42051
Z. DEMO: Srednjovjekovni mačevi, VAMZ, 3. s., XVI-XVII (1983-1984)

“The sabre with an S- shaped cross (no. 6) is a tvpical example of the weapons
used in the middle of the 15th C. (Fig. 2, Plate 2:3, 4:3). The hilt of his type of
sabre, with it's characteristics length for a one-and-a-half-handed grip has, as a rule,
a simple flat pommel, level on the longer side, and slightly circular or polygonally
shaped shorter side with a circular boss with a concave dimple in the centre. In
reference to the distribution of the known finds to date of this type of sabre, it
should be classified as a typical weapon for the Croatian-Hungarian area. The
shape and format of the blade distinguishes at least three particular variants of this
type of sabre:
a) a blade which widens in the lower third with a marked point at the beginning
of greater width;
b) a blade which widens in the lower third with a fuller (channel for blood);
These two variants contain elements characteristic for sword blades of the
14th and 15th Centuries, especially for types XIII, XV and XVI,
c) a blade without a fuller (or with only a very short and shallow channel)
and without any widening of the blade in the lower section.”

Matchlock · 17th October 2010, 03:05 PM

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for bringing these up for discussion.

They are Italian influenced pommels and quillons of the 1470'-90's type, though; please note the raised central ovoid shape (medallion) which usually is no longer present after 1490.

Best,
Michael

15th October 2010, 09:36 AM	#3
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	Just ran across this article while googling for something else, could it be a version of this pommel type? hrcak.srce.hr/file/42051 Z. DEMO: Srednjovjekovni mačevi, VAMZ, 3. s., XVI-XVII (1983-1984) “The sabre with an S- shaped cross (no. 6) is a tvpical example of the weapons used in the middle of the 15th C. (Fig. 2, Plate 2:3, 4:3). The hilt of his type of sabre, with it's characteristics length for a one-and-a-half-handed grip has, as a rule, a simple flat pommel, level on the longer side, and slightly circular or polygonally shaped shorter side with a circular boss with a concave dimple in the centre. In reference to the distribution of the known finds to date of this type of sabre, it should be classified as a typical weapon for the Croatian-Hungarian area. The shape and format of the blade distinguishes at least three particular variants of this type of sabre: a) a blade which widens in the lower third with a marked point at the beginning of greater width; b) a blade which widens in the lower third with a fuller (channel for blood); These two variants contain elements characteristic for sword blades of the 14th and 15th Centuries, especially for types XIII, XV and XVI, c) a blade without a fuller (or with only a very short and shallow channel) and without any widening of the blade in the lower section.” Attached Images

11th October 2010, 06:42 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Michael, you are absolutely right about the description it is by no means a katzbalger degen or landsknecht degen. This type of sword belongs indeed to the German sword style of estoc. As you definitely know as well they are produced in Graz, Judenberg and Passau. there are a number of examples preserved in the Grazer Zeughaus. also these type of estocs were carried by Austrian harquebusiers and Hungarian hussars on horseback. in the wars with the Turks. about the date we disagree..................... why not The closed 8 ring guard is a later development of the open 8 guard. the later estocs also have an integral cap at the quillion block covering the ricasso to keep water out of the scabbard and sometimes also an octagonal guard plate. I think that the estocs with closed ringguards and scabbard throats can be dated in the second half of the 16thC, Also the Giegh/Visser one and the open 8 shaped quards with the caps in the first half of the 16thC.(similar as the developement of the katzbalger hilt in the 16thC) lit:P.Krenn 1997 pp30-31 kind regards from Holland

11th October 2010, 07:00 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Agreed! Best regards from Bavaria, Michael

17th October 2010, 03:05 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Jeff, Thanks for bringing these up for discussion. They are Italian influenced pommels and quillons of the 1470'-90's type, though; please note the raised central ovoid shape (medallion) which usually is no longer present after 1490. Best, Michael