vikingsword?!? ID needed

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

You asked how one could tell?

By 30 years of studying and experience. based on 300,000 photos taken in the best museums and their reserve collections, plus a private library comprising 3,000 books and catalogs.
There also were Katzbalgers with single edged blades, as well as Katzbalger sabers, especially in the later period of that type of Landsknecht swords, so your blade is not unusual at all.

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

I absolutely don't doubt your knowledge, however sometimes we disagree but that is good for the debate. herewith a katzbalger with an Estoc blade.
A katzbalger degen.

kind regards from Holland

[Matchlock]

Hi Cornelis,

I do not have the least problem with you disagreeing now and then; that's what brings life into our discussions after all.

Nevertheless I am sorry to have to differ from the description of the item you posted yesterday. This is by no means a Katzbalgerdegen but clearly an estoc for horsemen. It's much too long to be toted by an infantry soldier like a Landsknecht; remember Katzbalgers are only about 90 cm long. The open Brezen-Parierstange (pretzel shaped quillons) is not unusual at all for that type of dangerous thrusting weapon of ca. 1540-50

Remember the famous GIECH estoc, an earlier type (ca. 1520) than yours, sold Sotheby's in 1974, and again from the Visser collection in 1990? I attach scans and description. BTW, it fetched 15,000 euro in 1990 and would probably double its price today.


Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

you are absolutely right about the description it is by no means a katzbalger degen or landsknecht degen. This type of sword belongs indeed to the German sword style of estoc.
As you definitely know as well they are produced in Graz, Judenberg and Passau. there are a number of examples preserved in the Grazer Zeughaus. also these type of estocs were carried by Austrian harquebusiers and Hungarian hussars on horseback. in the wars with the Turks.
about the date we disagree..................... why not
The closed 8 ring guard is a later development of the open 8 guard.
the later estocs also have an integral cap at the quillion block covering the ricasso to keep water out of the scabbard and sometimes also an octagonal guard plate.
I think that the estocs with closed ringguards and scabbard throats can be dated in the second half of the 16thC, Also the Giegh/Visser one and the open 8 shaped quards with the caps in the first half of the 16thC.(similar as the developement of the katzbalger hilt in the 16thC)
lit:P.Krenn 1997 pp30-31


kind regards from Holland

[Matchlock]

Agreed!

Best regards from Bavaria,
Michael

[Jeff Pringle]

Just ran across this article while googling for something else, could it be a version of this pommel type?

hrcak.srce.hr/file/42051
Z. DEMO: Srednjovjekovni mačevi, VAMZ, 3. s., XVI-XVII (1983-1984)

“The sabre with an S- shaped cross (no. 6) is a tvpical example of the weapons
used in the middle of the 15th C. (Fig. 2, Plate 2:3, 4:3). The hilt of his type of
sabre, with it's characteristics length for a one-and-a-half-handed grip has, as a rule,
a simple flat pommel, level on the longer side, and slightly circular or polygonally
shaped shorter side with a circular boss with a concave dimple in the centre. In
reference to the distribution of the known finds to date of this type of sabre, it
should be classified as a typical weapon for the Croatian-Hungarian area. The
shape and format of the blade distinguishes at least three particular variants of this
type of sabre:
a) a blade which widens in the lower third with a marked point at the beginning
of greater width;
b) a blade which widens in the lower third with a fuller (channel for blood);
These two variants contain elements characteristic for sword blades of the
14th and 15th Centuries, especially for types XIII, XV and XVI,
c) a blade without a fuller (or with only a very short and shallow channel)
and without any widening of the blade in the lower section.”

[Matchlock]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for bringing these up for discussion.

They are Italian influenced pommels and quillons of the 1470'-90's type, though; please note the raised central ovoid shape (medallion) which usually is no longer present after 1490.

Best,
Michael