Help with Identification please

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Alan,

I think that you are most probable correct that Kerner used first time the term "gana hilt". So only other books apart from Kerner's publications ( 1. Keris-Griffe aus Museen und Privatsammlungen; 2000, 2. Keris-Griffe aus dem malayischen Archipel, Museum Rietberg Zürich, 1996) used the term gana hilt are 1. Kris Gli Invincibili from Vanna & Mario Ghiringhhelli, 1991 , 2. The Invicible Krises II, Vanna Ghiringhelli, 2007 and 3. Poignees de Kriss, Petit chefs-d' oeuvre d' Indonesie, Jean Greffioz, 2009. (So far I know)
So I think that it is most probable that this authors assumed the term from Kerner. Since Jean is also member of this forum he can maybe enlighten us if this is in case by his own publication.
So I am in analogy with your observation the the first use of the term "gana hilt" in print appears in Kerners books.
Maybe Pak Ganja like to jump in the discussion and can tell us if he have any presentiment of the term in use in old Java.

Regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef,
I am not at home now but confirm that I used the books from Martin Kerner and Vana Ghiringhelli as my sources, but also Tammens Volume 3 and the Ensiklopedi Keris if I am correct (sorry I can check it here). I bought this hilt from a very knowledgeable selller from your country and he described it in the same way.
Best regards
Jean

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your input Jean.

I've managed to track the first mention of this hilt style as "gana" to Garrett Solyom, in "World of the Javanese Keris".

As I have said, I've never heard this term used for it in Central Jawa, but Garrett apparently did, so I believe we can accept its authenticity.

He refers to a comparison with J.G.Huyser, Het vervaardigen van krissen, Nederlandsch Indie oud en niew, 1916-17, 1, pp.235-236, 547-561, 1917-18,2, pp.26-37, 102-114, 326-336,357-366,411-417,439-447. This is pretty comprehensive reference, but we cannot know exactly what the reference provides without looking at it. Does anybody have access to this source?

Garrett will be spending a few days with me in couple of weeks, I'll ask him where he first heard this term.

[Jean]

Hello Alan,
Thanks, I forgot the book from Solyom and probably others. The book from Huyser is well-known and should be available with some Dutch members. I would like to mention that some gana hilts seem to originate from Sumatra like my second specimen, this particular one was probably not fitted on a keris originally since the peksi hole has a rectangular shape and the section of the hilt is not round (longer than wide).
Best regards
Jean


[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]Thanks for your input Jean.

I've managed to track the first mention of this hilt style as "gana" to Garrett Solyom, in "World of the Javanese Keris".

As I have said, I've never heard this term used for it in Central Jawa, but Garrett apparently did, so I believe we can accept its authenticity.

[guwaya]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for your input Jean.

I've managed to track the first mention of this hilt style as "gana" to Garrett Solyom, in "World of the Javanese Keris".

As I have said, I've never heard this term used for it in Central Jawa, but Garrett apparently did, so I believe we can accept its authenticity.

He refers to a comparison with J.G.Huyser, Het vervaardigen van krissen, Nederlandsch Indie oud en niew, 1916-17, 1, pp.235-236, 547-561, 1917-18,2, pp.26-37, 102-114, 326-336,357-366,411-417,439-447. This is pretty comprehensive reference, but we cannot know exactly what the reference provides without looking at it. Does anybody have access to this source?

Garrett will be spending a few days with me in couple of weeks, I'll ask him where he first heard this term.

Hello A. G. Maisey, Hello to the Forum:

Here the citate from:
J.G.Huyse:, Het vervaardigen van krissen, Nederlandsch Indie oud en niew, 1917-18, 2, p. 33:

"................... door Dr. Hazeu beschreven als een menschelijk wezen "men zou zeggen een pas geboren kindje n hurkende houding, met narr boven bijna pits toeloopend hoofd, de gebogen armen stijf onder de kin en onnatuurlijk lange voeten en teenen. In vorm en houding gelijkt het sterk op enkele van die steenen 'leloehoer-beelden", die men hier en daar in adgelegen hoeken van West-Java aantreft, van 't zgn. Padjadjaran-type. De sporen van boreh, waarmee 't zeker-vaak besmeerd is, zijn nog zichtbaar. Sommigen beweren, dat zulke beeldjes ook wel 'gana-gana' heten. Volgens anderen is er eigenlijk verschil tusschen oendooek en 'gana'; een oendoek zou uitsluitend een zeepaardje, een 'gana' daarentegen een mensch of kind, 'kebo', 'sapi' of kip voorstellingen. ........................... ."

I hope this is of service for all and this is a wonderfull sample for my former promotion for old or older literature. As I must recognize - and this I declare without any aim to step on somebodies feet - it seems, that still most present so-called 'keris'-lovers read this critism but are still focused on to the popular picture books - naturally, its fare more compfortable.

Regards,
guwaya

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Guwaya.

Here is what google translator makes of this:-

by Dr.. Hazeu described as a human being "one would say a newborn baby n squatting position, with jesters over almost ring-shaped head, the curved arms tight under the chin and unnaturally long feet and toes. In form and attitude resembles strongly to some of the stones 'leloehoer images, which here and there in the corner of West Java adgelegen encounter, van' t called Padjadjaran type. The traces of boreh, which it certainly is-often smeared, are still visible. Some claim that such figurines called "gana-gana 'called. Others argue oendooek difference between fact and 'gana', one would only oendoek a seahorse, a 'gana' hand man or a child, 'Kebo', 'sapi' performances or chicken. .

I'm afraid that what I read here does not provide me with any sort of solid evidence that this "gana" or "gana-gana" is a legitimate usage. It seems that what is reported here is rather confusing. Can you clarify and substantiate?

Thanks.


I agree completely that older literature does contain much valuable information, however some of us do not have access to sources in the European languages, not only because of the physical absence of the publication, but also because of the inability to read Dutch, German, French & etc.

[guwaya]

[/QUOTE]


"I'm afraid that what I read here does not provide me with any sort of solid evidence that this "gana" or "gana-gana" is a legitimate usage ...... "

I agree completely that there is no real evidence that the term 'gana' is a legitime usage and under the the scholary view - I for myself - in scientific essays would prefer to describe such hilts as "natural grown hilts in abstract forms associated with .......". For myself I never heard the term 'gana' used by Javanese persons. Anyway, the articel from Huyser shows, that the term 'gana' was known in1917/1918.


"...... European languages, not only because of the physical absence of the publication, but also because of the inability to read Dutch, German, French & etc."

Naturally many people cannot speek or read a lot of languages but this literature exsists and if somebody wants to research seriously he has to find a way to arrange it, otherwise there will be a great lack in reseaches - just think about the articles and books written in Javanese or Indonesian. The sources are possible to get as - I can order copies in the Australia library and other states have the same system.

Nobody can expect that foreign researchers who are working deep and seriously translate their results into English - too many faults might happen in the translation which could leed to misunderstandings not wanted by the writer. There is a lot of old literature - important literature - about ethnographic studies in generell written in Dutch, German, French, Portugiese and other languages due to the fact that these countries have a long history. Literary research - a difficult and time eating matter, a full time job. So, the people prefer to take the easy literature (unfortunately uncritically) and I am nearly sure that in 20 years the serious informations among collectors are lost - sadly lost.

Thank you

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Detlef,
I am not at home now but confirm that I used the books from Martin Kerner and Vana Ghiringhelli as my sources, but also Tammens Volume 3 and the Ensiklopedi Keris if I am correct (sorry I can check it here). I bought this hilt from a very knowledgeable selller from your country and he described it in the same way.
Best regards
Jean

Hello Jean,

thank you for clarification. By Tammens Vol. 3 and in the Ensiklopedi Keris I can't find a direction to Gana hilts at a quick look.

Best regards,

Detlef

[Sajen]

I have to apologize for my imperfect research of first usage from term Gana. This may depend on that I don't take enough time for my research. I have had Solyom in my hands but don't see the pictured hilt at page 35.
What is very important to note: Huyser write on page 32 that Dr. Groneman in his studies about the keris observed that in the keraton of Jogya are keris hilts carried which are called Gana.

I quote: "Dr. Groneman vermeldt in zijn studie over de kris, dat in den Kraton van Djokja grepen worden getragen in mensch- of diergestalte, in den vorm van een djagoengkolf (d.i. mais). of van bloemen, die gana genoemd worden, of ook wel boomwortels zooals bij. op No. 25, die de menschelijke gestalte weergeven."

I am not very used to read netherlands but I try a free translation:
"Dr. Groneman described in his studies about the kris that in the Keraton of Jogya keris hilts are carried in human or animal design in the form of maize cob or flowers (here I am unsure if it is the correct way of tranlation) which are called Gana, carved from tree roots, look at Pic. No. 25, which are showing a human figure."

This translation may have some imprecision but I am sure that the esthesia will be correct.

So the first usage of the term "Gana" in matters of keris hilts in written dokuments seems to go back to Dr. Groneman i.e. the years between 1910-1913.

So it seems that the "so called keris-lovers" thoroughly able to do a good research!

Regards,

Detlef

[Henk]

Detlef,

A good translation. Well done. Of course, for the critical Dutch among us the translation could be refined, but the green line is a correct translation.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Henk

Detlef,

A good translation. Well done. Of course, for the critical Dutch among us the translation could be refined, but the green line is a correct translation.

Hello Henk,

thank you!

[A. G. Maisey]

This discussion is developing into the type of thing that interests me. Thank you gentlemen for your input.

Detlef, you have given us a translation that Henk, who is apparently a native speaker of Dutch, has told us is a good translation:-

"Dr. Groneman described in his studies about the kris that in the Keraton of Jogya keris hilts are carried in human or animal design in the form of maize cob or flowers (here I am unsure if it is the correct way of tranlation) which are called Gana, carved from tree roots, look at Pic. No. 25, which are showing a human figure."

If I run the relevant words through an online translator I get:-

"Dr. Groneman mentions in his study of the keris that is in the Yogya Kraton handles carried in human or animal figure, in the form of a djagoengkolf (ie corn). or flowers, which are called Gana, also known as with tree roots. at No. 25, which show the human form. "

I think that the online translator comes fairly close in sense to your translation, so we can probably accept that you have translated the sense of the passage adequately.

However, in the recent publication of Groneman in English, the translation has significant variation:-

" In the Kraton of Jogjakata --- they carry ukiran in the shape of humans and animals, of djagung (corn-) cobs or flowers, called gana, as well as some made from tree roots resembling the human form."

What interests me is this:- your quote is a report of Groneman's original writing, note "--- Dr. Groneman mentions in his study---" , it is not the original words written by Groneman.

In your translation, and in the online translation of this passage, it can be taken that a particular form of hilt is identified that is known as the gana form, that is:-

"--- human or animal design in the form of maize cob or flowers --- which are called Gana, carved from tree roots---"

and

"--- human or animal figure, in the form of a djagoengkolf (ie corn). or flowers, which are called Gana, also known as with tree roots ---"


However, if we look at the translation done by Peter Richardus of Leiden, and Timothy Rogers of Oxford, we find that the passage is given quite a different meaning, in that the hilts in the form of humans, animals , flowers and cobs of corn are called "gana", and " --- as well as some made from tree roots resembling the human form." which are not given any name.

I believe that we can accept that the English edition of Groneman was sourced from Groneman's original writings, however, I will put that question to Tim today and ask him for a clarification of the source used, and the reliability of the translation.

This is a vital distinction, and indicates to me that perhaps everybody who has followed on from Groneman has sourced from the publication that you have used, and as a result people have been calling these naturally occurring root-form hilts by the name intended for a different form for a very long time.

I don't know about you people, but I really do find this sort of thing to be of intense interest.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your input to this discussion, Guwaya.

The word "gana" does occur in Modern Javanese , so it is not a term invented by bules, but the question is this:- is it correctly applied to this naturally occurring root-form hilt?

In light of the post I have just now made, I am currently in some doubt that it is correctly applied.

If we accept the Richardus/Rogers translation, obviously the current belief that it applies to the naturally occurring root-form hilt is just plain wrong.

At the moment it looks to me like Mr. Huyser made an error that has been repeated ever since.


The problem of information contained in varying languages is certainly a real one, and it is one of the functions of academia to co-relate these varying sources and make them intelligible to the world community. This is one of the reasons for a community of academics to exist, and it justifies the expenditure of the broader community on their upkeep.

What academics produce is then able to be examined by those of us who are not academics, and when this academically produced work is examined by people from the broader community, who come from a variety of disciplines, it is only natural that questions will be asked that may not have occurred to the original translator, or reporter.

Academics by nature are researchers, and where adequate funds are available, specialist academics who are specialist researchers , can be employed. Where specialist researchers cannot be employed, then the academic community as a whole becomes the researcher for the general community, as a whole. The results of research can then be subjected to analysis.

I am not an academic, and have never had the slightest desire to be, nor to become one. My own discipline is audit, and that involves the very close examination of data and the application of logical examination and analysis to that data. This process almost invariably results in the formation of questions.

This is what I do. I ask questions. It is not my job to construct the answers, I construct the questions, and then I put those questions to specialists in the various fields involved in the enquiry.

If the right question is asked, the right answer will be provided, if it currently exists.

When I apply myself to matters to do with the keris, I adopt the same approach. It is difficult for me to approach the matter in any other way, as this is simply the application of my professional skills to a different field.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

This discussion is developing into the type of thing that interests me. Thank you gentlemen for your input.

Jean, you have given us a translation that Henk, who is apparently a native speaker of Dutch, has told us is a good translation:-

Only for correctness, not Jean has translated the text, it have been my humble self who have done it.

Detlef

[guwaya]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

This discussion is developing into the type of thing that interests me. Thank you gentlemen for your input.


However, in the recent publication of Groneman in English, the translation has significant variation:-

" In the Kraton of Jogjakata --- they carry ukiran in the shape of humans and animals, of djagung (corn-) cobs or flowers, called gana, as well as some made from tree roots resembling the human form."

What interests me is this:- your quote is a report of Groneman's original writing, note "--- Dr. Groneman mentions in his study---" , it is not the original words written by Groneman.

In your translation, and in the online translation of this passage, it can be taken that a particular form of hilt is identified that is known as the gana form, that is:-

"--- human or animal design in the form of maize cob or flowers --- which are called Gana, carved from tree roots---"

and

"--- human or animal figure, in the form of a djagoengkolf (ie corn). or flowers, which are called Gana, also known as with tree roots ---"


However, if we look at the translation done by Peter Richardus of Leiden, and Timothy Rogers of Oxford, we find that the passage is given quite a different meaning, in that the hilts in the form of humans, animals , flowers and cobs of corn are called "gana", and " --- as well as some made from tree roots resembling the human form." which are not given any name.

I believe that we can accept that the English edition of Groneman was sourced from Groneman's original writings, however, I will put that question to Tim today and ask him for a clarification of the source used, and the reliability of the translation.

This is a vital distinction, and indicates to me that perhaps everybody who has followed on from Groneman has sourced from the publication that you have used, and as a result people have been calling these naturally occurring root-form hilts by the name intended for a different form for a very long time.

I don't know about you people, but I really do find this sort of thing to be of intense interest.

A. G. Maisey:

If I understand it correct, you are interested into getting the original version of Groneman's statement - here it i.

It is taken from the original periodical: International Archiv für Ethnographie Bd. XIX, p. 180. Leiden 1910.

Here are the continuing essays about "Der Kris der Javanen" which were later published in book-form. The original text is in German language and here's the citate:

"Im kraton von Jogjakarta tragen die panakawan (dienende junge Edelleute, Pagen) wenn sie mit entblöstem Oberkörper und Federn versehenem Haarschmuck, ohne Kopftuch (semut gatet) erscheinen, ukiran in Form menschlicher und tierischer Gestalten, in Form von djagung (Mais-)Kolben oder Blumen. die gana genannt werden, wie auch einige dem menschlichen Bilde gleichende Baumwurzen."

This is the original citate from Gronemans statement - I will mail this first and then try to do an exact translation.

Regards

[guwaya]

[/QUOTE]
Here now the closest translation I am able to do:

In the keraton of Yogyakarta, the panakawan (serving peers, pages), if they appear with bare upper part of the body and feather performed hair-decoration without headscarf (semut gatut), are wearing ukiran of the form of human and animistic gestalt, in the design of jagung (maize-) Kolben or flowers which are called gana, as well as some tree-roots resembling the human figure.

The translation is a bit bumpy but I prefered to leave it as litterally as possible.

Regards