hidden room 2 - captured arms

Aqtai · 17th June 2005, 12:38 PM

Thanks BI for sharing these beautiful pictures with us. Thank you especially for photographing the bowcase, a piece of Islamic warriors equipment that is often overlooked.

Have you got any more photos of that bizzare helmet, the one that is a cross between a shishak and kulah khud? I don't think I have ever seen anything like that before. You wouldn't happen to know if it was made that way, or is it a kulah khud that has been "Ottomanified"?

B.I · 17th June 2005, 01:07 PM

hi aqtai,
well observed in pointing out the helmet, as it is a strange concoction. it isnt a kulah khud and is pure ottoman, with slight changes. this is all theory, as it was sometime ago that i saw the collection, but the decoration and style of the whole helmet is ottoman and typical of a type, as is the decoration and the guilding.
the difference is the mail. these helmets didnt normally carry mail and instead had 2 ear flaps and a rear neck piece held on by leather, rivetted on to the bowl with copper rivets.
the peak and nasal bar were rivetted straight onto the bowl as well, again with copper.
the ear flaps and peak on this helmet are en-suite, and so can happily assume they were part of this helmet.
the most important point, is that they were normally deeper in bowl, and this fact may explain the current construction. my guess, would be that the helmet suffered damage at some time and was 'shortened'. the bowl was then pierced to hold the chainmail, and the peak and ear pieces were then attached. as it seems an unlikely design for use, there is a chance this may have happened after its working life, for aesthetic reasons only (otherwise you would have the peak bouncing around on your face)
if you follow the decoration around the rim, you see it almost ends abruptly. also, the guilding is lost around these holes and the guilding and decoration would have been originally applied after the construction was completed.
ottoman helmets carrying mail where done straight onto the helmet at a later design. helmets that carried mail of this period (most notably the 'turban' helmets) had fittings attached, into which a wire was threaded which held the chainmail.
still a great piece though!

Aqtai · 17th June 2005, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

hi aqtai,
i'm a little confused of which helmet you mean. the ottoman or the tarter-esque helmet?

Sorry. the first helmet. It has a hemispherical bowl with a mail fringe and has a Shishak-style peak, cheek plates, neck-guard and nasal bar attached to the mail. That 's what I meant by a cross between a kulah khud and shishak.

I don't recall ever seeing an Ottoman helmet like that before.

B.I · 17th June 2005, 01:37 PM

hi aqtai,
sorry, i worked out which helmet you meant and edited my question. now it sounds like your repeating yourself for no reason, and i'm clairvoyant :-)

Aqtai · 17th June 2005, 02:13 PM

Thanks for the reply B.I. It is a bizarre piece. I suppose it could be a parade helmet, as you pointed out the peak would be fairly unstable. I still cannot help wondering why such an impractical helmet?

With regards to my 1st impression, I believe the Ottomans were in the habit of modifying captured helmets. If I remember rightly, the Royal Armouries (I've not been there since they moved it to Leeds) had a very tall Persian helmet which was "Ottomanified" by having a peak added on to it, and I wondered if the same thing had happened here.

H.R. Robinson's Oriental Armour has a line drawing of a slightly more conventional shishak with the peak suspended by hinges rather than usual six rivets attaching it to the brow. Another design which I thought was highly impractical.

This helmet does clear up one thing for me. I have often wondered if the lower edge of the mail brow piece of a kulah khud stopped above the eyes or if it was in front the eyes. Obviously with this particular helmet, if the mail was in front of the eyes the wearer would not be able to see.

B.I · 17th June 2005, 02:24 PM

hi aqtai,
the ottomans did indeed reuse helmets from other cultures, and i've seen some strange assemblages, with burgonets with ottoman lamellar neckguards.
this piece, however is pure ottoman. also, i still hold to my theory, and so i feel it doesnt help with your khud/vision question, as it may nave been put together after its working life, where the vision wasnt important.
also, remember 90% of the khuds you see today are made for decoration, and never for use and so they wont help. a 17thC khud is heavier and larger than the 19thC bazaar pieces.
your answer, may be in mail and mail'plate helmets of india, which covered the face completely. these, by theri construction and date would have been made for use, and so i feel the mail curtain didnt obstruct the vision, or if it did, it was deemed acceptable.
also note, these earlier helmets were composed of riveted mail and so the links were thicker than the 19thC butted links you see now. even so, it was deemed a necessary obstruction.
i will try and find an image of what the ottoman helmet should have looked like.

B.I · 17th June 2005, 05:37 PM

this given an idea of its original form.

17th June 2005, 01:07 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi aqtai, well observed in pointing out the helmet, as it is a strange concoction. it isnt a kulah khud and is pure ottoman, with slight changes. this is all theory, as it was sometime ago that i saw the collection, but the decoration and style of the whole helmet is ottoman and typical of a type, as is the decoration and the guilding. the difference is the mail. these helmets didnt normally carry mail and instead had 2 ear flaps and a rear neck piece held on by leather, rivetted on to the bowl with copper rivets. the peak and nasal bar were rivetted straight onto the bowl as well, again with copper. the ear flaps and peak on this helmet are en-suite, and so can happily assume they were part of this helmet. the most important point, is that they were normally deeper in bowl, and this fact may explain the current construction. my guess, would be that the helmet suffered damage at some time and was 'shortened'. the bowl was then pierced to hold the chainmail, and the peak and ear pieces were then attached. as it seems an unlikely design for use, there is a chance this may have happened after its working life, for aesthetic reasons only (otherwise you would have the peak bouncing around on your face) if you follow the decoration around the rim, you see it almost ends abruptly. also, the guilding is lost around these holes and the guilding and decoration would have been originally applied after the construction was completed. ottoman helmets carrying mail where done straight onto the helmet at a later design. helmets that carried mail of this period (most notably the 'turban' helmets) had fittings attached, into which a wire was threaded which held the chainmail. still a great piece though! Last edited by B.I; 17th June 2005 at 01:36 PM.

17th June 2005, 05:37 PM	#7
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	this given an idea of its original form. Attached Images

17th June 2005, 12:38 PM	#1
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Thanks BI for sharing these beautiful pictures with us. Thank you especially for photographing the bowcase, a piece of Islamic warriors equipment that is often overlooked. Have you got any more photos of that bizzare helmet, the one that is a cross between a shishak and kulah khud? I don't think I have ever seen anything like that before. You wouldn't happen to know if it was made that way, or is it a kulah khud that has been "Ottomanified"?

17th June 2005, 01:37 PM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi aqtai, sorry, i worked out which helmet you meant and edited my question. now it sounds like your repeating yourself for no reason, and i'm clairvoyant :-)

17th June 2005, 02:13 PM	#5
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Thanks for the reply B.I. It is a bizarre piece. I suppose it could be a parade helmet, as you pointed out the peak would be fairly unstable. I still cannot help wondering why such an impractical helmet? With regards to my 1st impression, I believe the Ottomans were in the habit of modifying captured helmets. If I remember rightly, the Royal Armouries (I've not been there since they moved it to Leeds) had a very tall Persian helmet which was "Ottomanified" by having a peak added on to it, and I wondered if the same thing had happened here. H.R. Robinson's Oriental Armour has a line drawing of a slightly more conventional shishak with the peak suspended by hinges rather than usual six rivets attaching it to the brow. Another design which I thought was highly impractical. This helmet does clear up one thing for me. I have often wondered if the lower edge of the mail brow piece of a kulah khud stopped above the eyes or if it was in front the eyes. Obviously with this particular helmet, if the mail was in front of the eyes the wearer would not be able to see.

17th June 2005, 02:24 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi aqtai, the ottomans did indeed reuse helmets from other cultures, and i've seen some strange assemblages, with burgonets with ottoman lamellar neckguards. this piece, however is pure ottoman. also, i still hold to my theory, and so i feel it doesnt help with your khud/vision question, as it may nave been put together after its working life, where the vision wasnt important. also, remember 90% of the khuds you see today are made for decoration, and never for use and so they wont help. a 17thC khud is heavier and larger than the 19thC bazaar pieces. your answer, may be in mail and mail'plate helmets of india, which covered the face completely. these, by theri construction and date would have been made for use, and so i feel the mail curtain didnt obstruct the vision, or if it did, it was deemed acceptable. also note, these earlier helmets were composed of riveted mail and so the links were thicker than the 19thC butted links you see now. even so, it was deemed a necessary obstruction. i will try and find an image of what the ottoman helmet should have looked like.