Euro/? Blade Double Use or Euro inspired?

ingelred · 17th June 2005, 08:11 AM

I don't know if this is important but the tang seems to be welded onto the blade. Concerning the blade, maybe there once was an inscription on it which did not suit the new owner so he destroyd it. But this is only a guess.

Greetings, Helge

tom hyle · 17th June 2005, 02:18 PM

Very interesting. Don't get discouraged over a "fantasy" sword. This is a hand made piece and very interesting if nothing else. The decorations are forged. I see no writing; only patterns imitative of blade grooves. The lion and the human have a N/E African (Ethiopian?) look. The welded on tang is very meaningful; if the piece was made by an industrial human he was being not only consciously primitive, but knowledgeably primitive. I'd more suggest the "fine art" scene than the recreator scene, but then Europe may be a bit different (AFAIK in that the reenactors etc. are much more authentic and serious as a rule; often only allowing exact copies of specific archaeological pieces to be used, for instance.). On the other hand the tang has a modern look (well, mostly the big hole; other than that it's not real unusual). The thing has features of many blades I've seen, but in unprecedented combination, perhaps. Any imput on temper? Sharpness? The flats appear to have been ground on (or what are those lines?)? It looks like a "primitive" copy of Indo Persian work?

tom hyle · 17th June 2005, 02:19 PM

Is this your sword then? It's very interesting. First, it is not a product of industrial processes, so if it was made by a person from an industrial culture it was with very deliberate and somewhat knowledgeable primitiveness. The welded on tang is the proof pudding for that; industrial culture dislikes a welded on tang, especially when it's the whole thing and not just the back end. Then of course, it is a hammer weld. All the decorations are forged in hot, though the flats seem to have been polished by grinding (? or what are those lines?). I do not think there is any writing, just geometric patterns, made up of lines of repeated stamps, perhaps with some traditional meaning, but mostly just decorative. The lion and the human both seem to be one-piece stamps that were hammered into the hot blade.
I'm not sure what nationality I might guess; if European probably made by a "fine art" art-scene artist/a blacksmith shooting for that scene. If traditional, it's like many things I've seen and unlike all of them.....

........My guess is N/E Africa, based mainly on the lion and the looks of the human.......but the short tang; with a big punched hole?.....seems modern?........almost seems like a "primitive" version of "Indo-Persian" work......
I like the looks of it. Any further information on how it was acquired? Any input on temper?
Ever sharp?

tom hyle · 17th June 2005, 02:20 PM

So I wrote two replies sort of kind of accidentally. See if they agree with each other; it's fun

roanoa · 18th June 2005, 10:15 PM

I believe it's the blade form a Kaskara. I have one (complete with scabbard) that came out of Eritrea. It has the same pattern, which I belive is made to "imitate" the etching in the fullers. It also has two "heads" identical to the one in yours. No lion, though. Has anyone ever taken the hilt off a Kaskara? Is there a hole in the tang?

tom hyle · 19th June 2005, 12:52 AM

I haven't (takouba yes though). It is, however, my information that they usually do not have a pin or rivet thru the blade, and also that the tang is usually full-length and peined at the butt.

derek · 19th June 2005, 05:39 AM

Roano,

Interesting, I see it. At first I saw that "emporer" or whatever he is and thought of some old roman coins I have, but it certainly could be an attempt to imitate the Menelik II or Haille Selassie's image on Abyssinian swords. Especially with the lion on the reverse. And again, the attempt to mimic the pattern in the blade fullers. Seems plausible, but now I really want to know who, when, and why......

tom hyle · 19th June 2005, 10:25 AM

Yeah, I see it, too, but I also see the part length tang with the big hole, and that's what I'm not sure fits. The transverse forged line at the blade base is seen on Berbese (and on Oceanic SE Asian) work. The three lines seem imitative of triple fullers, which are common and widespread, but certainly fit, and also bear a cetain vague resemblance to the spinal decorations on kodme (Berbese Mediterranean dirks). The human looks REALLY Afrasian to me; so that fits, too; the instant reminding is of ancient Egyptian portraiture, for instance; Ethiopeans, Berbers, Somalis, Arabs are for instance also Afrasian (it's a language group; that's how contemporary anthropologists like to divide humans up, usually). The lion reminds of lions seen on this forum on blades made in Europe for the Ethiopean military (yes?) market. Still suspecting it is NE African (Ethiopean, etc.), and the tang resembles short tangs of jambiya and some qamas/kinzhals/etc. that I've been told are the Persian ones. it's the big hole that throws me or that doesn't fit; everything doesn't have to fit, but I'm just saying. The placement of this hole would require a pin that would pass through the very end of the upper lagnet of a Turkic cross type handguard (ala kilij etc.) at best, or thru just the handle (whether there is such a guard or not), which is seen on some N/W Slavo-Turkic sabres, for instance, and it is a particularly large hole, too.......no solid knowledge on the whole thing, but that's the most mysterious factor to me. My guess remains Afrasian/Islamic/Indo-Persian, and most likely NE African; Ethiopea being kind of most suggested. Of course, there's still nothing to rule out it being European neoclassicism or orientalism or whatnot, except that while the big hole in the tang doesn't seem Afrasian, the weld at the base of the tang doesn't seem like (modern) European cutler work, though in decorative arts....Advice? Try to find/specifically identify the patterns to some cultural context. Is it now or has it been sharp? If the edges are conspicuously flat/squared/rebated that slants things considerably toward an art object/decorator sword/whatever and toward Europe. I don't imagine it is spring tempered, or do you check that kind of thing? Many collectors don't, which is understandable. I even broke a sword once flexing it. It was a bad sword; an European 19th c. wallhanger with a cast iron blade (it turns out

), but it was still not a pleasant experience/memory.....Roanoa's testimony certainly points us to NE Africa.

17th June 2005, 02:20 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	bit of a computer error So I wrote two replies sort of kind of accidentally. See if they agree with each other; it's fun

19th June 2005, 10:25 AM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yeah, I see it, too, but I also see the part length tang with the big hole, and that's what I'm not sure fits. The transverse forged line at the blade base is seen on Berbese (and on Oceanic SE Asian) work. The three lines seem imitative of triple fullers, which are common and widespread, but certainly fit, and also bear a cetain vague resemblance to the spinal decorations on kodme (Berbese Mediterranean dirks). The human looks REALLY Afrasian to me; so that fits, too; the instant reminding is of ancient Egyptian portraiture, for instance; Ethiopeans, Berbers, Somalis, Arabs are for instance also Afrasian (it's a language group; that's how contemporary anthropologists like to divide humans up, usually). The lion reminds of lions seen on this forum on blades made in Europe for the Ethiopean military (yes?) market. Still suspecting it is NE African (Ethiopean, etc.), and the tang resembles short tangs of jambiya and some qamas/kinzhals/etc. that I've been told are the Persian ones. it's the big hole that throws me or that doesn't fit; everything doesn't have to fit, but I'm just saying. The placement of this hole would require a pin that would pass through the very end of the upper lagnet of a Turkic cross type handguard (ala kilij etc.) at best, or thru just the handle (whether there is such a guard or not), which is seen on some N/W Slavo-Turkic sabres, for instance, and it is a particularly large hole, too.......no solid knowledge on the whole thing, but that's the most mysterious factor to me. My guess remains Afrasian/Islamic/Indo-Persian, and most likely NE African; Ethiopea being kind of most suggested. Of course, there's still nothing to rule out it being European neoclassicism or orientalism or whatnot, except that while the big hole in the tang doesn't seem Afrasian, the weld at the base of the tang doesn't seem like (modern) European cutler work, though in decorative arts....Advice? Try to find/specifically identify the patterns to some cultural context. Is it now or has it been sharp? If the edges are conspicuously flat/squared/rebated that slants things considerably toward an art object/decorator sword/whatever and toward Europe. I don't imagine it is spring tempered, or do you check that kind of thing? Many collectors don't, which is understandable. I even broke a sword once flexing it. It was a bad sword; an European 19th c. wallhanger with a cast iron blade (it turns out ), but it was still not a pleasant experience/memory.....Roanoa's testimony certainly points us to NE Africa. Last edited by tom hyle; 19th June 2005 at 05:13 PM.

17th June 2005, 08:11 AM	#1
ingelred Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany Posts: 62	I don't know if this is important but the tang seems to be welded onto the blade. Concerning the blade, maybe there once was an inscription on it which did not suit the new owner so he destroyd it. But this is only a guess. Greetings, Helge

17th June 2005, 02:18 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Very interesting. Don't get discouraged over a "fantasy" sword. This is a hand made piece and very interesting if nothing else. The decorations are forged. I see no writing; only patterns imitative of blade grooves. The lion and the human have a N/E African (Ethiopian?) look. The welded on tang is very meaningful; if the piece was made by an industrial human he was being not only consciously primitive, but knowledgeably primitive. I'd more suggest the "fine art" scene than the recreator scene, but then Europe may be a bit different (AFAIK in that the reenactors etc. are much more authentic and serious as a rule; often only allowing exact copies of specific archaeological pieces to be used, for instance.). On the other hand the tang has a modern look (well, mostly the big hole; other than that it's not real unusual). The thing has features of many blades I've seen, but in unprecedented combination, perhaps. Any imput on temper? Sharpness? The flats appear to have been ground on (or what are those lines?)? It looks like a "primitive" copy of Indo Persian work?

17th June 2005, 02:19 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Is this your sword then? It's very interesting. First, it is not a product of industrial processes, so if it was made by a person from an industrial culture it was with very deliberate and somewhat knowledgeable primitiveness. The welded on tang is the proof pudding for that; industrial culture dislikes a welded on tang, especially when it's the whole thing and not just the back end. Then of course, it is a hammer weld. All the decorations are forged in hot, though the flats seem to have been polished by grinding (? or what are those lines?). I do not think there is any writing, just geometric patterns, made up of lines of repeated stamps, perhaps with some traditional meaning, but mostly just decorative. The lion and the human both seem to be one-piece stamps that were hammered into the hot blade. I'm not sure what nationality I might guess; if European probably made by a "fine art" art-scene artist/a blacksmith shooting for that scene. If traditional, it's like many things I've seen and unlike all of them..... ........My guess is N/E Africa, based mainly on the lion and the looks of the human.......but the short tang; with a big punched hole?.....seems modern?........almost seems like a "primitive" version of "Indo-Persian" work...... I like the looks of it. Any further information on how it was acquired? Any input on temper? Ever sharp?

18th June 2005, 10:15 PM	#5
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 241	I believe it's the blade form a Kaskara. I have one (complete with scabbard) that came out of Eritrea. It has the same pattern, which I belive is made to "imitate" the etching in the fullers. It also has two "heads" identical to the one in yours. No lion, though. Has anyone ever taken the hilt off a Kaskara? Is there a hole in the tang?

19th June 2005, 12:52 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I haven't (takouba yes though). It is, however, my information that they usually do not have a pin or rivet thru the blade, and also that the tang is usually full-length and peined at the butt.

19th June 2005, 05:39 AM	#7
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Roano, Interesting, I see it. At first I saw that "emporer" or whatever he is and thought of some old roman coins I have, but it certainly could be an attempt to imitate the Menelik II or Haille Selassie's image on Abyssinian swords. Especially with the lion on the reverse. And again, the attempt to mimic the pattern in the blade fullers. Seems plausible, but now I really want to know who, when, and why......