hidden room 2 - captured arms

Andrew · 17th June 2005, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

sorry andrew. not a dha in sight

lol. That's okay, Brian. Not every museum is perfect.

Thanks for sharing these.

Lew · 17th June 2005, 04:23 AM

Hi Guys

I find it interesting that there are Stars of David on Islamic armor? Can anyone explain?

Lew

Berkley · 17th June 2005, 04:41 AM

The hexagram in Islamic art is not referrred to as the Star of David but rather as the Khatam Suleiman, or King Solomon's Seal. Click on the third picture from the bottom in the link to see its use as an illustration in a Muslim book of prayers and excerpts from the Quran c. 1761

Rather · 17th June 2005, 07:56 AM

Thank you for sharing these great pictures!

Has anybody been to the Ca’ Pesaro in Venice? A great Museum for Oriental Art. (Oriental is a little bit misleading in this case) They have an excellent collection of Japanese arms and armour, some Chinese pieces of art and a few Indonesian Weapons.

A virtual visit is possible, page is in Italian, but as it is a lovely language, one should not worry about it.

http://www.artive.arti.beniculturali...Orientale.html

B.I · 17th June 2005, 08:46 AM

hi rather,
my original 'hidden room' post was from the Ca’ Pesaro.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=137
a stunning collection and well worth the visit.

Aqtai · 17th June 2005, 12:38 PM

Thanks BI for sharing these beautiful pictures with us. Thank you especially for photographing the bowcase, a piece of Islamic warriors equipment that is often overlooked.

Have you got any more photos of that bizzare helmet, the one that is a cross between a shishak and kulah khud? I don't think I have ever seen anything like that before. You wouldn't happen to know if it was made that way, or is it a kulah khud that has been "Ottomanified"?

B.I · 17th June 2005, 01:07 PM

hi aqtai,
well observed in pointing out the helmet, as it is a strange concoction. it isnt a kulah khud and is pure ottoman, with slight changes. this is all theory, as it was sometime ago that i saw the collection, but the decoration and style of the whole helmet is ottoman and typical of a type, as is the decoration and the guilding.
the difference is the mail. these helmets didnt normally carry mail and instead had 2 ear flaps and a rear neck piece held on by leather, rivetted on to the bowl with copper rivets.
the peak and nasal bar were rivetted straight onto the bowl as well, again with copper.
the ear flaps and peak on this helmet are en-suite, and so can happily assume they were part of this helmet.
the most important point, is that they were normally deeper in bowl, and this fact may explain the current construction. my guess, would be that the helmet suffered damage at some time and was 'shortened'. the bowl was then pierced to hold the chainmail, and the peak and ear pieces were then attached. as it seems an unlikely design for use, there is a chance this may have happened after its working life, for aesthetic reasons only (otherwise you would have the peak bouncing around on your face)
if you follow the decoration around the rim, you see it almost ends abruptly. also, the guilding is lost around these holes and the guilding and decoration would have been originally applied after the construction was completed.
ottoman helmets carrying mail where done straight onto the helmet at a later design. helmets that carried mail of this period (most notably the 'turban' helmets) had fittings attached, into which a wire was threaded which held the chainmail.
still a great piece though!

17th June 2005, 04:23 AM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Are those Stars of David ? Hi Guys I find it interesting that there are Stars of David on Islamic armor? Can anyone explain? Lew

17th June 2005, 01:07 PM	#7
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi aqtai, well observed in pointing out the helmet, as it is a strange concoction. it isnt a kulah khud and is pure ottoman, with slight changes. this is all theory, as it was sometime ago that i saw the collection, but the decoration and style of the whole helmet is ottoman and typical of a type, as is the decoration and the guilding. the difference is the mail. these helmets didnt normally carry mail and instead had 2 ear flaps and a rear neck piece held on by leather, rivetted on to the bowl with copper rivets. the peak and nasal bar were rivetted straight onto the bowl as well, again with copper. the ear flaps and peak on this helmet are en-suite, and so can happily assume they were part of this helmet. the most important point, is that they were normally deeper in bowl, and this fact may explain the current construction. my guess, would be that the helmet suffered damage at some time and was 'shortened'. the bowl was then pierced to hold the chainmail, and the peak and ear pieces were then attached. as it seems an unlikely design for use, there is a chance this may have happened after its working life, for aesthetic reasons only (otherwise you would have the peak bouncing around on your face) if you follow the decoration around the rim, you see it almost ends abruptly. also, the guilding is lost around these holes and the guilding and decoration would have been originally applied after the construction was completed. ottoman helmets carrying mail where done straight onto the helmet at a later design. helmets that carried mail of this period (most notably the 'turban' helmets) had fittings attached, into which a wire was threaded which held the chainmail. still a great piece though! Last edited by B.I; 17th June 2005 at 01:36 PM.

17th June 2005, 04:41 AM	#3
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	The hexagram in Islamic art is not referrred to as the Star of David but rather as the Khatam Suleiman, or King Solomon's Seal. Click on the third picture from the bottom in the link to see its use as an illustration in a Muslim book of prayers and excerpts from the Quran c. 1761

17th June 2005, 07:56 AM	#4
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	Thank you for sharing these great pictures! Has anybody been to the Ca’ Pesaro in Venice? A great Museum for Oriental Art. (Oriental is a little bit misleading in this case) They have an excellent collection of Japanese arms and armour, some Chinese pieces of art and a few Indonesian Weapons. A virtual visit is possible, page is in Italian, but as it is a lovely language, one should not worry about it. http://www.artive.arti.beniculturali...Orientale.html

17th June 2005, 08:46 AM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi rather, my original 'hidden room' post was from the Ca’ Pesaro. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=137 a stunning collection and well worth the visit.

17th June 2005, 12:38 PM	#6
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Thanks BI for sharing these beautiful pictures with us. Thank you especially for photographing the bowcase, a piece of Islamic warriors equipment that is often overlooked. Have you got any more photos of that bizzare helmet, the one that is a cross between a shishak and kulah khud? I don't think I have ever seen anything like that before. You wouldn't happen to know if it was made that way, or is it a kulah khud that has been "Ottomanified"?