Help with Identification please

Sajen · 6th October 2010, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks Detlef.

In Modern Javanese 'gana' has a number of meanings:- a share of property, something in the form of something, a fetus, a bee, larva, pupa, a cloud, a little statue of a living thing, a god with an elephant head (Ganesha).

In Old Javanese it can mean a group, or friends, or helpers, or a group of minor deities, or Ganesha himself, or a division of the military.

In formal Hindu belief "gana" also has a number of meanings, but usually it is an abbreviation of "gana- devatas'' which can be understood as "troops of deities", that is, deities who usually appear as classes of deities who attend Siwa and are under the command of Ganesha, thus the connection of Ganesha:Ganapati:Gana (Ganapati=Lord of the Ganas).

See how confusing these things can become?

Hello Alan,

the red marked is what I understand before by the word gana. My understanding of a gana hilt is a natural grown piece wood (or other material, for example akar bahar) which use the natural knots without a lot of carving to show an anthropomorphic figure. And it is told in many books (of course without any proof) that handles like this have a function as jimat.

Kind regards,

Detlef

imas560 · 8th October 2010, 02:03 AM

Hello asomotif,
she was bearing up pretty well till she caught me using the toothbrush to scoop off the goopy fungus. That stuff is nasty.

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2010, 04:47 AM

Thanks for your response Detlef.

Yes, I think that your idea of a "gana" hilt is about as most people who use the term understand it.

However, when was this term first used for these hilts?

The earliest use of the term "gana" that I can find is in Martin Kerner's keris grip book that was published in 1996. I cannot find the term used to refer to this type of hilt, prior to this. Because Martin was rather relaxed in his attitude towards providing references for his information, I have no alternative at the moment but to assume that this term is a product of Martin's inventive imagination. However, Martin also uses the term to refer to a hilt made of ceramic, and that can hardly be a naturally occurring form, so just exactly what did Martin have in mind as the attributes of this particular hilt form?

I am aware that the term is used by some people who contribute to discussion in this forum, but I do not know where else it appears in print.

Detlef, since you are aware of the presence of this terminology in many books, other than in Martin Kerner's keris grip book, could I trouble you to name those books, and the date of publication?

My present feeling is that we could well have another situation similar to the intensely interesting Durga terminology on our hands.

David · 8th October 2010, 05:52 AM

I see your concern here Alan and i am wondering the same. I think Detlef also questions this terminology since in his post raising this question he refers to them as "so called" Gana hilts, showing some doubt of the terminology. However i think this is a separate concern from the original question, which is, does this type of hilt that we are calling "gana hilts" (as described by Detlef in his last post) hold any kind of power or purpose in any traditional cultural context beyond merely completing the dress?

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2010, 06:08 AM

Yes David, agreed.

A completely different question to that raised by Cedric.

Here is Cedric's original question:-

"---But nobody ever mention the relation between the handle and the blade. ---
Does anybody think that the handle is anything more than just a grip to handle the blade, and is there any opinion on the role of the handle on guarding or protecting the recipient faculty of the keris blade?---"

which is most certainly very different to the question raised by Imas, which began this thread:-

"---I bought a keris recently but am not sure of origin.
I've had a look in van Zonneveld and a search in the posts.
Any help in identifying would be greatly appreciated---"

The nature of threads in our discussions does seem to wander all over the ship, so now we have this additional question which is this:-

When did the term "Gana Hilt" first appear in print as the name for this naturally occurring form used as a hilt?

If you feel that discussion is becoming too diverse, perhaps in your capacity as moderator you may care to isolate each of the several topics that have been addressed in this thread, together with their relevant posts, and start new threads with them?

David · 8th October 2010, 01:30 PM

Nope, i don't feel the discussion is becoming too diverse at all and your question is indeed valid. I fully understand the nature of of threads in these discussions at this point. I just don't want to see this tangent obscure Sajen and Imas question before we have had a chance to explore it more. There is certainly room for everyone's questions here...

Sajen · 8th October 2010, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Nope, i don't feel the discussion is becoming too diverse at all and your question is indeed valid. I fully understand the nature of of threads in these discussions at this point. I just don't want to see this tangent obscure Sajen and Imas question before we have had a chance to explore it more. There is certainly room for everyone's questions here...

Thank you David!

Sajen · 8th October 2010, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for your response Detlef.

Yes, I think that your idea of a "gana" hilt is about as most people who use the term understand it.

However, when was this term first used for these hilts?

The earliest use of the term "gana" that I can find is in Martin Kerner's keris grip book that was published in 1996. I cannot find the term used to refer to this type of hilt, prior to this. Because Martin was rather relaxed in his attitude towards providing references for his information, I have no alternative at the moment but to assume that this term is a product of Martin's inventive imagination. However, Martin also uses the term to refer to a hilt made of ceramic, and that can hardly be a naturally occurring form, so just exactly what did Martin have in mind as the attributes of this particular hilt form?

I am aware that the term is used by some people who contribute to discussion in this forum, but I do not know where else it appears in print.

Detlef, since you are aware of the presence of this terminology in many books, other than in Martin Kerner's keris grip book, could I trouble you to name those books, and the date of publication?

My present feeling is that we could well have another situation similar to the intensely interesting Durga terminology on our hands.

Alan,

first of all I have to note that David is correct by his assumption that I used the term "so called gana hilts" intentional. And that I write "in many books" have been a little bit hastily, sorry.
I think that you are most probable correct that Kerner used first time the term "gana hilt". So only other books apart from Kerner's publications ( 1. Keris-Griffe aus Museen und Privatsammlungen; 2000, 2. Keris-Griffe aus dem malayischen Archipel, Museum Rietberg Zürich, 1996) used the term gana hilt are 1. Kris Gli Invincibili from Vanna & Mario Ghiringhhelli, 1991 , 2. The Invicible Krises II, Vanna Ghiringhelli, 2007 and 3. Poignees de Kriss, Petit chefs-d' oeuvre d' Indonesie, Jean Greffioz, 2009. (So far I know)
So I think that it is most probable that this authors assumed the term from Kerner. Since Jean is also member of this forum he can maybe enlighten us if this is in case by his own publication.
So I am in analogy with your observation the the first use of the term "gana hilt" in print appears in Kerners books.
Maybe Pak Ganja like to jump in the discussion and can tell us if he have any presentiment of the term in use in old Java.

Regards,

Detlef

Jean · 10th October 2010, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Alan,

I think that you are most probable correct that Kerner used first time the term "gana hilt". So only other books apart from Kerner's publications ( 1. Keris-Griffe aus Museen und Privatsammlungen; 2000, 2. Keris-Griffe aus dem malayischen Archipel, Museum Rietberg Zürich, 1996) used the term gana hilt are 1. Kris Gli Invincibili from Vanna & Mario Ghiringhhelli, 1991 , 2. The Invicible Krises II, Vanna Ghiringhelli, 2007 and 3. Poignees de Kriss, Petit chefs-d' oeuvre d' Indonesie, Jean Greffioz, 2009. (So far I know)
So I think that it is most probable that this authors assumed the term from Kerner. Since Jean is also member of this forum he can maybe enlighten us if this is in case by his own publication.
So I am in analogy with your observation the the first use of the term "gana hilt" in print appears in Kerners books.
Maybe Pak Ganja like to jump in the discussion and can tell us if he have any presentiment of the term in use in old Java.

Regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef,
I am not at home now but confirm that I used the books from Martin Kerner and Vana Ghiringhelli as my sources, but also Tammens Volume 3 and the Ensiklopedi Keris if I am correct (sorry I can check it here). I bought this hilt from a very knowledgeable selller from your country and he described it in the same way.
Best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 10th October 2010, 11:08 AM

Thanks for your input Jean.

I've managed to track the first mention of this hilt style as "gana" to Garrett Solyom, in "World of the Javanese Keris".

As I have said, I've never heard this term used for it in Central Jawa, but Garrett apparently did, so I believe we can accept its authenticity.

He refers to a comparison with J.G.Huyser, Het vervaardigen van krissen, Nederlandsch Indie oud en niew, 1916-17, 1, pp.235-236, 547-561, 1917-18,2, pp.26-37, 102-114, 326-336,357-366,411-417,439-447. This is pretty comprehensive reference, but we cannot know exactly what the reference provides without looking at it. Does anybody have access to this source?

Garrett will be spending a few days with me in couple of weeks, I'll ask him where he first heard this term.

Jean · 10th October 2010, 11:47 AM

Hello Alan,
Thanks, I forgot the book from Solyom and probably others. The book from Huyser is well-known and should be available with some Dutch members. I would like to mention that some gana hilts seem to originate from Sumatra like my second specimen, this particular one was probably not fitted on a keris originally since the peksi hole has a rectangular shape and the section of the hilt is not round (longer than wide).
Best regards
Jean

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]Thanks for your input Jean.

I've managed to track the first mention of this hilt style as "gana" to Garrett Solyom, in "World of the Javanese Keris".

As I have said, I've never heard this term used for it in Central Jawa, but Garrett apparently did, so I believe we can accept its authenticity.

guwaya · 10th October 2010, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for your input Jean.

I've managed to track the first mention of this hilt style as "gana" to Garrett Solyom, in "World of the Javanese Keris".

As I have said, I've never heard this term used for it in Central Jawa, but Garrett apparently did, so I believe we can accept its authenticity.

He refers to a comparison with J.G.Huyser, Het vervaardigen van krissen, Nederlandsch Indie oud en niew, 1916-17, 1, pp.235-236, 547-561, 1917-18,2, pp.26-37, 102-114, 326-336,357-366,411-417,439-447. This is pretty comprehensive reference, but we cannot know exactly what the reference provides without looking at it. Does anybody have access to this source?

Garrett will be spending a few days with me in couple of weeks, I'll ask him where he first heard this term.

Hello A. G. Maisey, Hello to the Forum:

Here the citate from:
J.G.Huyse:, Het vervaardigen van krissen, Nederlandsch Indie oud en niew, 1917-18, 2, p. 33:

"................... door Dr. Hazeu beschreven als een menschelijk wezen "men zou zeggen een pas geboren kindje n hurkende houding, met narr boven bijna pits toeloopend hoofd, de gebogen armen stijf onder de kin en onnatuurlijk lange voeten en teenen. In vorm en houding gelijkt het sterk op enkele van die steenen 'leloehoer-beelden", die men hier en daar in adgelegen hoeken van West-Java aantreft, van 't zgn. Padjadjaran-type. De sporen van boreh, waarmee 't zeker-vaak besmeerd is, zijn nog zichtbaar. Sommigen beweren, dat zulke beeldjes ook wel 'gana-gana' heten. Volgens anderen is er eigenlijk verschil tusschen oendooek en 'gana'; een oendoek zou uitsluitend een zeepaardje, een 'gana' daarentegen een mensch of kind, 'kebo', 'sapi' of kip voorstellingen. ........................... ."

I hope this is of service for all and this is a wonderfull sample for my former promotion for old or older literature. As I must recognize - and this I declare without any aim to step on somebodies feet - it seems, that still most present so-called 'keris'-lovers read this critism but are still focused on to the popular picture books - naturally, its fare more compfortable.

Regards,
guwaya

Sajen · 10th October 2010, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Detlef,
I am not at home now but confirm that I used the books from Martin Kerner and Vana Ghiringhelli as my sources, but also Tammens Volume 3 and the Ensiklopedi Keris if I am correct (sorry I can check it here). I bought this hilt from a very knowledgeable selller from your country and he described it in the same way.
Best regards
Jean

Hello Jean,

thank you for clarification. By Tammens Vol. 3 and in the Ensiklopedi Keris I can't find a direction to Gana hilts at a quick look.

Best regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 10th October 2010, 07:36 PM

I have to apologize for my imperfect research of first usage from term Gana. This may depend on that I don't take enough time for my research. I have had Solyom in my hands but don't see the pictured hilt at page 35.
What is very important to note: Huyser write on page 32 that Dr. Groneman in his studies about the keris observed that in the keraton of Jogya are keris hilts carried which are called Gana.

I quote: "Dr. Groneman vermeldt in zijn studie over de kris, dat in den Kraton van Djokja grepen worden getragen in mensch- of diergestalte, in den vorm van een djagoengkolf (d.i. mais). of van bloemen, die gana genoemd worden, of ook wel boomwortels zooals bij. op No. 25, die de menschelijke gestalte weergeven."

I am not very used to read netherlands but I try a free translation:
"Dr. Groneman described in his studies about the kris that in the Keraton of Jogya keris hilts are carried in human or animal design in the form of maize cob or flowers (here I am unsure if it is the correct way of tranlation) which are called Gana, carved from tree roots, look at Pic. No. 25, which are showing a human figure."

This translation may have some imprecision but I am sure that the esthesia will be correct.

So the first usage of the term "Gana" in matters of keris hilts in written dokuments seems to go back to Dr. Groneman i.e. the years between 1910-1913.

So it seems that the "so called keris-lovers" thoroughly able to do a good research!

Regards,

Detlef

10th October 2010, 07:36 PM	#14
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	I have to apologize for my imperfect research of first usage from term Gana. This may depend on that I don't take enough time for my research. I have had Solyom in my hands but don't see the pictured hilt at page 35. What is very important to note: Huyser write on page 32 that Dr. Groneman in his studies about the keris observed that in the keraton of Jogya are keris hilts carried which are called Gana. I quote: "Dr. Groneman vermeldt in zijn studie over de kris, dat in den Kraton van Djokja grepen worden getragen in mensch- of diergestalte, in den vorm van een djagoengkolf (d.i. mais). of van bloemen, die gana genoemd worden, of ook wel boomwortels zooals bij. op No. 25, die de menschelijke gestalte weergeven." I am not very used to read netherlands but I try a free translation: "Dr. Groneman described in his studies about the kris that in the Keraton of Jogya keris hilts are carried in human or animal design in the form of maize cob or flowers (here I am unsure if it is the correct way of tranlation) which are called Gana, carved from tree roots, look at Pic. No. 25, which are showing a human figure." This translation may have some imprecision but I am sure that the esthesia will be correct. So the first usage of the term "Gana" in matters of keris hilts in written dokuments seems to go back to Dr. Groneman i.e. the years between 1910-1913. So it seems that the "so called keris-lovers" thoroughly able to do a good research! Regards, Detlef Attached Images

8th October 2010, 02:03 AM	#2
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Hello asomotif, she was bearing up pretty well till she caught me using the toothbrush to scoop off the goopy fungus. That stuff is nasty.

8th October 2010, 04:47 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks for your response Detlef. Yes, I think that your idea of a "gana" hilt is about as most people who use the term understand it. However, when was this term first used for these hilts? The earliest use of the term "gana" that I can find is in Martin Kerner's keris grip book that was published in 1996. I cannot find the term used to refer to this type of hilt, prior to this. Because Martin was rather relaxed in his attitude towards providing references for his information, I have no alternative at the moment but to assume that this term is a product of Martin's inventive imagination. However, Martin also uses the term to refer to a hilt made of ceramic, and that can hardly be a naturally occurring form, so just exactly what did Martin have in mind as the attributes of this particular hilt form? I am aware that the term is used by some people who contribute to discussion in this forum, but I do not know where else it appears in print. Detlef, since you are aware of the presence of this terminology in many books, other than in Martin Kerner's keris grip book, could I trouble you to name those books, and the date of publication? My present feeling is that we could well have another situation similar to the intensely interesting Durga terminology on our hands.

8th October 2010, 05:52 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I see your concern here Alan and i am wondering the same. I think Detlef also questions this terminology since in his post raising this question he refers to them as "so called" Gana hilts, showing some doubt of the terminology. However i think this is a separate concern from the original question, which is, does this type of hilt that we are calling "gana hilts" (as described by Detlef in his last post) hold any kind of power or purpose in any traditional cultural context beyond merely completing the dress?

8th October 2010, 06:08 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes David, agreed. A completely different question to that raised by Cedric. Here is Cedric's original question:- "---But nobody ever mention the relation between the handle and the blade. --- Does anybody think that the handle is anything more than just a grip to handle the blade, and is there any opinion on the role of the handle on guarding or protecting the recipient faculty of the keris blade?---" which is most certainly very different to the question raised by Imas, which began this thread:- "---I bought a keris recently but am not sure of origin. I've had a look in van Zonneveld and a search in the posts. Any help in identifying would be greatly appreciated---" The nature of threads in our discussions does seem to wander all over the ship, so now we have this additional question which is this:- When did the term "Gana Hilt" first appear in print as the name for this naturally occurring form used as a hilt? If you feel that discussion is becoming too diverse, perhaps in your capacity as moderator you may care to isolate each of the several topics that have been addressed in this thread, together with their relevant posts, and start new threads with them?

8th October 2010, 01:30 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Nope, i don't feel the discussion is becoming too diverse at all and your question is indeed valid. I fully understand the nature of of threads in these discussions at this point. I just don't want to see this tangent obscure Sajen and Imas question before we have had a chance to explore it more. There is certainly room for everyone's questions here...

10th October 2010, 11:08 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks for your input Jean. I've managed to track the first mention of this hilt style as "gana" to Garrett Solyom, in "World of the Javanese Keris". As I have said, I've never heard this term used for it in Central Jawa, but Garrett apparently did, so I believe we can accept its authenticity. He refers to a comparison with J.G.Huyser, Het vervaardigen van krissen, Nederlandsch Indie oud en niew, 1916-17, 1, pp.235-236, 547-561, 1917-18,2, pp.26-37, 102-114, 326-336,357-366,411-417,439-447. This is pretty comprehensive reference, but we cannot know exactly what the reference provides without looking at it. Does anybody have access to this source? Garrett will be spending a few days with me in couple of weeks, I'll ask him where he first heard this term.

10th October 2010, 11:47 AM	#11
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Thanks, I forgot the book from Solyom and probably others. The book from Huyser is well-known and should be available with some Dutch members. I would like to mention that some gana hilts seem to originate from Sumatra like my second specimen, this particular one was probably not fitted on a keris originally since the peksi hole has a rectangular shape and the section of the hilt is not round (longer than wide). Best regards Jean [QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]Thanks for your input Jean. I've managed to track the first mention of this hilt style as "gana" to Garrett Solyom, in "World of the Javanese Keris". As I have said, I've never heard this term used for it in Central Jawa, but Garrett apparently did, so I believe we can accept its authenticity.