Help with Identification please

Sajen · 5th October 2010, 02:27 AM

Since it is in Germany already early morning i will think about and will try to answer later. BTW, I don't know the translation of the javanese word gana.

A. G. Maisey · 5th October 2010, 02:52 AM

Thanks Detlef.

In Modern Javanese 'gana' has a number of meanings:- a share of property, something in the form of something, a fetus, a bee, larva, pupa, a cloud, a little statue of a living thing, a god with an elephant head (Ganesha).

In Old Javanese it can mean a group, or friends, or helpers, or a group of minor deities, or Ganesha himself, or a division of the military.

In formal Hindu belief "gana" also has a number of meanings, but usually it is an abbreviation of "gana- devatas'' which can be understood as "troops of deities", that is, deities who usually appear as classes of deities who attend Siwa and are under the command of Ganesha, thus the connection of Ganesha:Ganapati:Gana (Ganapati=Lord of the Ganas).

See how confusing these things can become?

Sajen · 6th October 2010, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks Detlef.

In Modern Javanese 'gana' has a number of meanings:- a share of property, something in the form of something, a fetus, a bee, larva, pupa, a cloud, a little statue of a living thing, a god with an elephant head (Ganesha).

In Old Javanese it can mean a group, or friends, or helpers, or a group of minor deities, or Ganesha himself, or a division of the military.

In formal Hindu belief "gana" also has a number of meanings, but usually it is an abbreviation of "gana- devatas'' which can be understood as "troops of deities", that is, deities who usually appear as classes of deities who attend Siwa and are under the command of Ganesha, thus the connection of Ganesha:Ganapati:Gana (Ganapati=Lord of the Ganas).

See how confusing these things can become?

Hello Alan,

the red marked is what I understand before by the word gana. My understanding of a gana hilt is a natural grown piece wood (or other material, for example akar bahar) which use the natural knots without a lot of carving to show an anthropomorphic figure. And it is told in many books (of course without any proof) that handles like this have a function as jimat.

Kind regards,

Detlef

imas560 · 8th October 2010, 02:03 AM

Hello asomotif,
she was bearing up pretty well till she caught me using the toothbrush to scoop off the goopy fungus. That stuff is nasty.

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2010, 04:47 AM

Thanks for your response Detlef.

Yes, I think that your idea of a "gana" hilt is about as most people who use the term understand it.

However, when was this term first used for these hilts?

The earliest use of the term "gana" that I can find is in Martin Kerner's keris grip book that was published in 1996. I cannot find the term used to refer to this type of hilt, prior to this. Because Martin was rather relaxed in his attitude towards providing references for his information, I have no alternative at the moment but to assume that this term is a product of Martin's inventive imagination. However, Martin also uses the term to refer to a hilt made of ceramic, and that can hardly be a naturally occurring form, so just exactly what did Martin have in mind as the attributes of this particular hilt form?

I am aware that the term is used by some people who contribute to discussion in this forum, but I do not know where else it appears in print.

Detlef, since you are aware of the presence of this terminology in many books, other than in Martin Kerner's keris grip book, could I trouble you to name those books, and the date of publication?

My present feeling is that we could well have another situation similar to the intensely interesting Durga terminology on our hands.

David · 8th October 2010, 05:52 AM

I see your concern here Alan and i am wondering the same. I think Detlef also questions this terminology since in his post raising this question he refers to them as "so called" Gana hilts, showing some doubt of the terminology. However i think this is a separate concern from the original question, which is, does this type of hilt that we are calling "gana hilts" (as described by Detlef in his last post) hold any kind of power or purpose in any traditional cultural context beyond merely completing the dress?

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2010, 06:08 AM

Yes David, agreed.

A completely different question to that raised by Cedric.

Here is Cedric's original question:-

"---But nobody ever mention the relation between the handle and the blade. ---
Does anybody think that the handle is anything more than just a grip to handle the blade, and is there any opinion on the role of the handle on guarding or protecting the recipient faculty of the keris blade?---"

which is most certainly very different to the question raised by Imas, which began this thread:-

"---I bought a keris recently but am not sure of origin.
I've had a look in van Zonneveld and a search in the posts.
Any help in identifying would be greatly appreciated---"

The nature of threads in our discussions does seem to wander all over the ship, so now we have this additional question which is this:-

When did the term "Gana Hilt" first appear in print as the name for this naturally occurring form used as a hilt?

If you feel that discussion is becoming too diverse, perhaps in your capacity as moderator you may care to isolate each of the several topics that have been addressed in this thread, together with their relevant posts, and start new threads with them?

Sajen · 8th October 2010, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for your response Detlef.

Yes, I think that your idea of a "gana" hilt is about as most people who use the term understand it.

However, when was this term first used for these hilts?

The earliest use of the term "gana" that I can find is in Martin Kerner's keris grip book that was published in 1996. I cannot find the term used to refer to this type of hilt, prior to this. Because Martin was rather relaxed in his attitude towards providing references for his information, I have no alternative at the moment but to assume that this term is a product of Martin's inventive imagination. However, Martin also uses the term to refer to a hilt made of ceramic, and that can hardly be a naturally occurring form, so just exactly what did Martin have in mind as the attributes of this particular hilt form?

I am aware that the term is used by some people who contribute to discussion in this forum, but I do not know where else it appears in print.

Detlef, since you are aware of the presence of this terminology in many books, other than in Martin Kerner's keris grip book, could I trouble you to name those books, and the date of publication?

My present feeling is that we could well have another situation similar to the intensely interesting Durga terminology on our hands.

Alan,

first of all I have to note that David is correct by his assumption that I used the term "so called gana hilts" intentional. And that I write "in many books" have been a little bit hastily, sorry.
I think that you are most probable correct that Kerner used first time the term "gana hilt". So only other books apart from Kerner's publications ( 1. Keris-Griffe aus Museen und Privatsammlungen; 2000, 2. Keris-Griffe aus dem malayischen Archipel, Museum Rietberg Zürich, 1996) used the term gana hilt are 1. Kris Gli Invincibili from Vanna & Mario Ghiringhhelli, 1991 , 2. The Invicible Krises II, Vanna Ghiringhelli, 2007 and 3. Poignees de Kriss, Petit chefs-d' oeuvre d' Indonesie, Jean Greffioz, 2009. (So far I know)
So I think that it is most probable that this authors assumed the term from Kerner. Since Jean is also member of this forum he can maybe enlighten us if this is in case by his own publication.
So I am in analogy with your observation the the first use of the term "gana hilt" in print appears in Kerners books.
Maybe Pak Ganja like to jump in the discussion and can tell us if he have any presentiment of the term in use in old Java.

Regards,

Detlef

Jean · 10th October 2010, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Alan,

I think that you are most probable correct that Kerner used first time the term "gana hilt". So only other books apart from Kerner's publications ( 1. Keris-Griffe aus Museen und Privatsammlungen; 2000, 2. Keris-Griffe aus dem malayischen Archipel, Museum Rietberg Zürich, 1996) used the term gana hilt are 1. Kris Gli Invincibili from Vanna & Mario Ghiringhhelli, 1991 , 2. The Invicible Krises II, Vanna Ghiringhelli, 2007 and 3. Poignees de Kriss, Petit chefs-d' oeuvre d' Indonesie, Jean Greffioz, 2009. (So far I know)
So I think that it is most probable that this authors assumed the term from Kerner. Since Jean is also member of this forum he can maybe enlighten us if this is in case by his own publication.
So I am in analogy with your observation the the first use of the term "gana hilt" in print appears in Kerners books.
Maybe Pak Ganja like to jump in the discussion and can tell us if he have any presentiment of the term in use in old Java.

Regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef,
I am not at home now but confirm that I used the books from Martin Kerner and Vana Ghiringhelli as my sources, but also Tammens Volume 3 and the Ensiklopedi Keris if I am correct (sorry I can check it here). I bought this hilt from a very knowledgeable selller from your country and he described it in the same way.
Best regards
Jean

5th October 2010, 02:27 AM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Since it is in Germany already early morning i will think about and will try to answer later. BTW, I don't know the translation of the javanese word gana.

5th October 2010, 02:52 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks Detlef. In Modern Javanese 'gana' has a number of meanings:- a share of property, something in the form of something, a fetus, a bee, larva, pupa, a cloud, a little statue of a living thing, a god with an elephant head (Ganesha). In Old Javanese it can mean a group, or friends, or helpers, or a group of minor deities, or Ganesha himself, or a division of the military. In formal Hindu belief "gana" also has a number of meanings, but usually it is an abbreviation of "gana- devatas'' which can be understood as "troops of deities", that is, deities who usually appear as classes of deities who attend Siwa and are under the command of Ganesha, thus the connection of Ganesha:Ganapati:Gana (Ganapati=Lord of the Ganas). See how confusing these things can become?

8th October 2010, 02:03 AM	#4
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Hello asomotif, she was bearing up pretty well till she caught me using the toothbrush to scoop off the goopy fungus. That stuff is nasty.

8th October 2010, 04:47 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks for your response Detlef. Yes, I think that your idea of a "gana" hilt is about as most people who use the term understand it. However, when was this term first used for these hilts? The earliest use of the term "gana" that I can find is in Martin Kerner's keris grip book that was published in 1996. I cannot find the term used to refer to this type of hilt, prior to this. Because Martin was rather relaxed in his attitude towards providing references for his information, I have no alternative at the moment but to assume that this term is a product of Martin's inventive imagination. However, Martin also uses the term to refer to a hilt made of ceramic, and that can hardly be a naturally occurring form, so just exactly what did Martin have in mind as the attributes of this particular hilt form? I am aware that the term is used by some people who contribute to discussion in this forum, but I do not know where else it appears in print. Detlef, since you are aware of the presence of this terminology in many books, other than in Martin Kerner's keris grip book, could I trouble you to name those books, and the date of publication? My present feeling is that we could well have another situation similar to the intensely interesting Durga terminology on our hands.

8th October 2010, 05:52 AM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	I see your concern here Alan and i am wondering the same. I think Detlef also questions this terminology since in his post raising this question he refers to them as "so called" Gana hilts, showing some doubt of the terminology. However i think this is a separate concern from the original question, which is, does this type of hilt that we are calling "gana hilts" (as described by Detlef in his last post) hold any kind of power or purpose in any traditional cultural context beyond merely completing the dress?

8th October 2010, 06:08 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes David, agreed. A completely different question to that raised by Cedric. Here is Cedric's original question:- "---But nobody ever mention the relation between the handle and the blade. --- Does anybody think that the handle is anything more than just a grip to handle the blade, and is there any opinion on the role of the handle on guarding or protecting the recipient faculty of the keris blade?---" which is most certainly very different to the question raised by Imas, which began this thread:- "---I bought a keris recently but am not sure of origin. I've had a look in van Zonneveld and a search in the posts. Any help in identifying would be greatly appreciated---" The nature of threads in our discussions does seem to wander all over the ship, so now we have this additional question which is this:- When did the term "Gana Hilt" first appear in print as the name for this naturally occurring form used as a hilt? If you feel that discussion is becoming too diverse, perhaps in your capacity as moderator you may care to isolate each of the several topics that have been addressed in this thread, together with their relevant posts, and start new threads with them?