Help with Identification please

Sajen · 5th October 2010, 02:06 AM

Understand and taken!

A. G. Maisey · 5th October 2010, 02:18 AM

As an after thought, I feel it might be helpful, Detlef, if you were to define exactly what you consider to be a "gana" hilt.

Bearing in mind the several quite different meanings of the word "gana" in Modern Javanese, the meaning in Old Javanese, and the meaning according to the Hindu belief system, plus the fact that I have never heard this word used in Central Jawa as a descriptor for a keris hilt type, I am just a little curious as to exactly what you, and some other people regard as the essential characteristics of a gana hilt, and why.

Exactly where do we first find the term "gana hilt" used to refer to a Javanese hilt form ?

Sajen · 5th October 2010, 02:27 AM

Since it is in Germany already early morning i will think about and will try to answer later. BTW, I don't know the translation of the javanese word gana.

A. G. Maisey · 5th October 2010, 02:52 AM

Thanks Detlef.

In Modern Javanese 'gana' has a number of meanings:- a share of property, something in the form of something, a fetus, a bee, larva, pupa, a cloud, a little statue of a living thing, a god with an elephant head (Ganesha).

In Old Javanese it can mean a group, or friends, or helpers, or a group of minor deities, or Ganesha himself, or a division of the military.

In formal Hindu belief "gana" also has a number of meanings, but usually it is an abbreviation of "gana- devatas'' which can be understood as "troops of deities", that is, deities who usually appear as classes of deities who attend Siwa and are under the command of Ganesha, thus the connection of Ganesha:Ganapati:Gana (Ganapati=Lord of the Ganas).

See how confusing these things can become?

Sajen · 6th October 2010, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks Detlef.

In Modern Javanese 'gana' has a number of meanings:- a share of property, something in the form of something, a fetus, a bee, larva, pupa, a cloud, a little statue of a living thing, a god with an elephant head (Ganesha).

In Old Javanese it can mean a group, or friends, or helpers, or a group of minor deities, or Ganesha himself, or a division of the military.

In formal Hindu belief "gana" also has a number of meanings, but usually it is an abbreviation of "gana- devatas'' which can be understood as "troops of deities", that is, deities who usually appear as classes of deities who attend Siwa and are under the command of Ganesha, thus the connection of Ganesha:Ganapati:Gana (Ganapati=Lord of the Ganas).

See how confusing these things can become?

Hello Alan,

the red marked is what I understand before by the word gana. My understanding of a gana hilt is a natural grown piece wood (or other material, for example akar bahar) which use the natural knots without a lot of carving to show an anthropomorphic figure. And it is told in many books (of course without any proof) that handles like this have a function as jimat.

Kind regards,

Detlef

imas560 · 8th October 2010, 02:03 AM

Hello asomotif,
she was bearing up pretty well till she caught me using the toothbrush to scoop off the goopy fungus. That stuff is nasty.

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2010, 04:47 AM

Thanks for your response Detlef.

Yes, I think that your idea of a "gana" hilt is about as most people who use the term understand it.

However, when was this term first used for these hilts?

The earliest use of the term "gana" that I can find is in Martin Kerner's keris grip book that was published in 1996. I cannot find the term used to refer to this type of hilt, prior to this. Because Martin was rather relaxed in his attitude towards providing references for his information, I have no alternative at the moment but to assume that this term is a product of Martin's inventive imagination. However, Martin also uses the term to refer to a hilt made of ceramic, and that can hardly be a naturally occurring form, so just exactly what did Martin have in mind as the attributes of this particular hilt form?

I am aware that the term is used by some people who contribute to discussion in this forum, but I do not know where else it appears in print.

Detlef, since you are aware of the presence of this terminology in many books, other than in Martin Kerner's keris grip book, could I trouble you to name those books, and the date of publication?

My present feeling is that we could well have another situation similar to the intensely interesting Durga terminology on our hands.

5th October 2010, 02:06 AM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Understand and taken!

5th October 2010, 02:18 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	As an after thought, I feel it might be helpful, Detlef, if you were to define exactly what you consider to be a "gana" hilt. Bearing in mind the several quite different meanings of the word "gana" in Modern Javanese, the meaning in Old Javanese, and the meaning according to the Hindu belief system, plus the fact that I have never heard this word used in Central Jawa as a descriptor for a keris hilt type, I am just a little curious as to exactly what you, and some other people regard as the essential characteristics of a gana hilt, and why. Exactly where do we first find the term "gana hilt" used to refer to a Javanese hilt form ?

5th October 2010, 02:27 AM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Since it is in Germany already early morning i will think about and will try to answer later. BTW, I don't know the translation of the javanese word gana.

5th October 2010, 02:52 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks Detlef. In Modern Javanese 'gana' has a number of meanings:- a share of property, something in the form of something, a fetus, a bee, larva, pupa, a cloud, a little statue of a living thing, a god with an elephant head (Ganesha). In Old Javanese it can mean a group, or friends, or helpers, or a group of minor deities, or Ganesha himself, or a division of the military. In formal Hindu belief "gana" also has a number of meanings, but usually it is an abbreviation of "gana- devatas'' which can be understood as "troops of deities", that is, deities who usually appear as classes of deities who attend Siwa and are under the command of Ganesha, thus the connection of Ganesha:Ganapati:Gana (Ganapati=Lord of the Ganas). See how confusing these things can become?

8th October 2010, 02:03 AM	#6
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Hello asomotif, she was bearing up pretty well till she caught me using the toothbrush to scoop off the goopy fungus. That stuff is nasty.

8th October 2010, 04:47 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thanks for your response Detlef. Yes, I think that your idea of a "gana" hilt is about as most people who use the term understand it. However, when was this term first used for these hilts? The earliest use of the term "gana" that I can find is in Martin Kerner's keris grip book that was published in 1996. I cannot find the term used to refer to this type of hilt, prior to this. Because Martin was rather relaxed in his attitude towards providing references for his information, I have no alternative at the moment but to assume that this term is a product of Martin's inventive imagination. However, Martin also uses the term to refer to a hilt made of ceramic, and that can hardly be a naturally occurring form, so just exactly what did Martin have in mind as the attributes of this particular hilt form? I am aware that the term is used by some people who contribute to discussion in this forum, but I do not know where else it appears in print. Detlef, since you are aware of the presence of this terminology in many books, other than in Martin Kerner's keris grip book, could I trouble you to name those books, and the date of publication? My present feeling is that we could well have another situation similar to the intensely interesting Durga terminology on our hands.