vikingsword?!? ID needed

Matchlock · 30th September 2010, 06:58 PM

A Katzbalger of ca. 1535 - same period as yours - in the Musée de l'Armée in Paris.

Best, Michael

Dmitry · 30th September 2010, 07:30 PM

I just showed these photos to my cat, who has an impeccable nose for the 16th century pommels. Her verdict - a katzbalger!
So our experts agree!!!

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2010, 06:13 AM

I have been repeatedly drawn back to this thread by this intriguing sword, which of course at first glance has the compelling gestalt of a Frankish sword of Migration to Viking periods, and each time have been almost taunted by this strange pommel, and the configuration of the hilt at the blade root.

I must admit being a bit intimidated as I enter this sector in placing observations as Lee has of course pretty much the final word on these type swords with his many years of experience and research, which as noted, began these forums. Also I would note that Michaels note suggesting the 'katzbalger' potential seems to be ultimately plausible, and the similarity in the pommel profile he has shown is also compelling.

With that, I am really looking forward to the katzbalger Lee has cited in Zurich with a Migration period blade. That is absolutely phenomenal, to think of a blade with a secondary working life many centuries later, but in those days a good blade was to be used, not placed in a museum.

While it does seem that a katzbalger sword with a Migration period blade might be feasible as an anomaly on the Continent, such a combination excavated in England suggesting its being in situ from these early periods is truly puzzling.
The extreme goethite encrustation has eliminated it seems the definition in the sword elements that would help us in better identification, but as noted, the blade does have essentially the profile of these Frankish blades.

In Ellis-Davidson (p.48), it is noted that of these Frankish blades, which of course Ulfbehrt comes to mind, the Ingelrii (Ingelrilt, Ingelrd) blades which though contemporary, continued much later and in were known as late as 12th century. Also mentioned is that these blades were distributed appararantly differently in being found in England and Sweden.

While we know that the Viking period closed around 11th century, and that these blades are known as late as 12th c. and in England, these blades would, as evidenced, continue as working blades for some time later, even centuries, and into the period where these quite different type pommels and mounts would have been in place. The katzbalger swords seem to have thier origins around 15th century and continued into the 17th.

I am wondering if this might be a type of transitional or atavistic sword in England which might have been mounted in traditional style of earlier swords actually carrying an earlier blade, possibly even Ingelrii, and with pommel fashioned more toward other developing forms , perhaps around the 13th-14th century.

All best regards,
Jim

Lee · 2nd October 2010, 02:52 PM

Here is the listing for the katzbalger with recycled early Medieval blade from the catalog of edged weapons in the Schweizerischen Landesmuseum in Zurich.

I am still looking for a slide I made of it...

Lee · 3rd October 2010, 04:09 PM

Every time I look at the pictures I see something different and it is not always the effect of different monitors. Do I correctly perceive a trace of a fuller where I have placed the two green lines or is this just imaginings?

Jim McDougall · 3rd October 2010, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

Every time I look at the pictures I see something different and it is not always the effect of different monitors. Do I correctly perceive a trace of a fuller where I have placed the two green lines or is this just imaginings?

Ist das ein Franken klingen ?????

Matchlock · 3rd October 2010, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ist das ein Franken klingen ?????

Very well possible, Jim,

In any case it seems to be a 'wurmbunte Klinge' that may well be as early as the 5th or 6th century. Higher contrasted close up pics would sure help a lot.

Perhaps the attachament will be useful.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 3rd October 2010, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ist das ein Franken klingen ?????

Very well possible, Jim,

In any case it seems to be a 'wurmbunte Klinge' and may well be as early as the 5th or 6th century. Higher contrasted close up pics would sure help a lot.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 3rd October 2010, 04:53 PM

Hi Lee,

Great idea to post that Swiss piece with the recycled blade (German 'wurmbunte Klinge'). This of course is the characteristic form of a Katzbalger and somewhat earlier than our piece in question, about 1515-20.
Cornelistromp's sample can be assigned to ca. 1535-40 when single edged blades came into use with Katzbalgers as well. It sure was one of the latest of its kind. The German Pfalzgraf Ottheinrich, friend and look-alike of Henry VIII, was portayed bearing a Katzbalger with this kind of pommel in 1535 if I am not fooled by my memory.

I tried to share my pics of the Zurich piece but my scanner quit service this morning ...

Best,
Michael

1st October 2010, 06:13 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,195	I have been repeatedly drawn back to this thread by this intriguing sword, which of course at first glance has the compelling gestalt of a Frankish sword of Migration to Viking periods, and each time have been almost taunted by this strange pommel, and the configuration of the hilt at the blade root. I must admit being a bit intimidated as I enter this sector in placing observations as Lee has of course pretty much the final word on these type swords with his many years of experience and research, which as noted, began these forums. Also I would note that Michaels note suggesting the 'katzbalger' potential seems to be ultimately plausible, and the similarity in the pommel profile he has shown is also compelling. With that, I am really looking forward to the katzbalger Lee has cited in Zurich with a Migration period blade. That is absolutely phenomenal, to think of a blade with a secondary working life many centuries later, but in those days a good blade was to be used, not placed in a museum. While it does seem that a katzbalger sword with a Migration period blade might be feasible as an anomaly on the Continent, such a combination excavated in England suggesting its being in situ from these early periods is truly puzzling. The extreme goethite encrustation has eliminated it seems the definition in the sword elements that would help us in better identification, but as noted, the blade does have essentially the profile of these Frankish blades. In Ellis-Davidson (p.48), it is noted that of these Frankish blades, which of course Ulfbehrt comes to mind, the Ingelrii (Ingelrilt, Ingelrd) blades which though contemporary, continued much later and in were known as late as 12th century. Also mentioned is that these blades were distributed appararantly differently in being found in England and Sweden. While we know that the Viking period closed around 11th century, and that these blades are known as late as 12th c. and in England, these blades would, as evidenced, continue as working blades for some time later, even centuries, and into the period where these quite different type pommels and mounts would have been in place. The katzbalger swords seem to have thier origins around 15th century and continued into the 17th. I am wondering if this might be a type of transitional or atavistic sword in England which might have been mounted in traditional style of earlier swords actually carrying an earlier blade, possibly even Ingelrii, and with pommel fashioned more toward other developing forms , perhaps around the 13th-14th century. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 1st October 2010 at 04:22 PM.

2nd October 2010, 02:52 PM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Reference from Schneider (1980) Here is the listing for the katzbalger with recycled early Medieval blade from the catalog of edged weapons in the Schweizerischen Landesmuseum in Zurich. I am still looking for a slide I made of it... Attached Images

3rd October 2010, 04:09 PM	#5
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Seeing things? Every time I look at the pictures I see something different and it is not always the effect of different monitors. Do I correctly perceive a trace of a fuller where I have placed the two green lines or is this just imaginings? Attached Images

30th September 2010, 06:58 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Katzbalger of ca. 1535 - same period as yours - in the Musée de l'Armée in Paris. Best, Michael

30th September 2010, 07:30 PM	#2
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	I just showed these photos to my cat, who has an impeccable nose for the 16th century pommels. Her verdict - a katzbalger! So our experts agree!!!

3rd October 2010, 04:53 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Lee, Great idea to post that Swiss piece with the recycled blade (German 'wurmbunte Klinge'). This of course is the characteristic form of a Katzbalger and somewhat earlier than our piece in question, about 1515-20. Cornelistromp's sample can be assigned to ca. 1535-40 when single edged blades came into use with Katzbalgers as well. It sure was one of the latest of its kind. The German Pfalzgraf Ottheinrich, friend and look-alike of Henry VIII, was portayed bearing a Katzbalger with this kind of pommel in 1535 if I am not fooled by my memory. I tried to share my pics of the Zurich piece but my scanner quit service this morning ... Best, Michael