Mystery Dagger

Ron Anderson · 26th September 2010, 05:50 AM

Hi Fearn,

Having said that, my feeling is, it looks old. But not as old as 400/500 years.

It's the quillons that interest me. The quillons suggest that it is European to me. And quite old. But could be as recent as 18th century. Could even be 19th century, though I don't think it's any more recent more than that.

At this point, the limits of my experience have been reached. Is it possible this dagger was subsequently adapted and adopted elsewhere in Europe?

I think if that were the case, it wouldn't have ventured too far from Switzerland, perhaps Austria or Hungary (and this does look like it could be a bit Eastern), or Germany, or maybe even Italy.

All speculative.

fearn · 26th September 2010, 06:10 AM

Sorry Ron,

It's my misreading of your paragraph on the Holbein dagger.

I tend to agree with you on the age of the piece (I'm guessing century or less) but I'm trying to figure out what's going on with the ricasso and the horn on the grip. Either it's a really nice, slowly corroding alloy, or someone has done a really nice job cleaning it. With the horn on the grips, it's showing only minor splits, which again argues for good care or good climate control so that the horn didn't dry out and crack.

It's an interesting mix, since the blade is in rougher condition, and the guard is appears to be showing a bit of rust. It makes me wonder if it was rehilted at some point, while retaining the original guard.

F

Ron Anderson · 26th September 2010, 06:37 AM

I would agree that it is not unlikely the grip has been replaced, but maybe quite a while ago.

There are oils that help revitalise horn. Apparently these oils are made of cow hooves. So perhaps its just been treated recently.

Also a possibility.

I think it's an attractive dagger.

But I haven't convinced myself entirely that it is what I've suggested.

Frankly, it could be anything.

Tim Simmons · 26th September 2010, 11:54 AM

I would not be surprised if this knife from Corsica or other Med Islands especially ones that have had an Islamic influence. There are strong Spanish and Italian styles in the form. I can post pics from "Swords & Daggers, Frederick Wilkinson", "Edged Weapons, Fredrick Wilkinson" and "Swords & Bayonets, R.J. Wilkinson-Latham". All 16-17cent pieces and rather fine. This dagger is so similar but more simple with that ethnic look. Could be late 18th cent, very nice too.

Jim McDougall · 26th September 2010, 04:15 PM

I have been watching this discussion with great interest and must admit that the outstanding observations by all participating truly reflect the fascination in studying these weapons. Even the simplest appearing piece carries certain nuances that test everyones store of knowledge and recognition.
I would note here also that it is virtually impossible for the extremely modest Mr.Maisey to utter anything that could possible be considered less than scholarly observation! ...so the word stupid is not in the realm of anything he says or writes

so Alan we will disregard that sentence.

I think what makes ethnographic weapons often such conundrums is the fact that they reflect representations of regional historical tradition as well as the influences of many colonial and trade powers throughout centuries, and thier histories as well. While this weapon seems to reflect strong European style, it is the question whether it is in fact European, and with considerable age, or from colonial or trade regions and carrying those influences.

The grip is of a simple relatively convergent style with a waisted shape that is seen in countless forms on the hilts of edged weapons, and indeed was present on the previously mentioned German SA daggers introduced in 1933.
Much in the same sense, these called atavistically on the traditional 15th-16th century 'Holbein' daggers as the emphasis on early heritage is often used to carry nationalistically charged motivation. It is a powerful device that is reflected in the fashioning of many weapons in more modern times that have classical or historic designs.

The 'crab claw' quillons are indeed descended from European design, in particular many 'left hand' or parrying daggers which often accompanied rapiers in the late 16th-17th century. These scrolled down quillons are in turn derived from earlier Italian and Hispano-Moresque hilts which had become popular in the 15th century, and became essentially considered an Islamic feature from the Sacred Swords in Istanbul which were respectfully remounted when refurbished by the Ottomans.

The presence of the encircled dot is an often appearing symbol which is among the oldest symbols known in temporal motif, being found across parts of Asia, the Indian subcontinent, and is particularly well known in the Balkans and Afghan regions and contiguous regions of Central Asia. It has become extremely prevalent in North Africa, especially from Saharan regions and into Berber regions in the Maghreb, presumably from the same trade contacts which may be the source of many weapon forms. As the simple design is of primarily solar association among other possibilities, it lends well to the key beliefs in folk religions and thought, so is understandable as a pleasantly aesthetic design.

The median ridge, lozenge cross section blade is quite typical of European daggers, structurally well suited for thrusting, and characteristic of many forms used through medieval times on everything from ballocks to basilards.
I believe even the more modern famed Fairburn-Sykes combat knife has a blade of this section. As this particular cross section is not in my thought typical of North African blades, the blade itself may well be European.

Moving to the intriguing gold metal fretwork collar around the blade forte; here is where we really move toward the Maghreb. This type collar or bolster around the based of the hilt/blade root is somewhat characteristic of the well known 'koummya' or Moroccan janbiyya, while the dagger itself seems to be a somewhat smaller version of s'boula, produced in representation of one of the earlier European left hand daggers previously noted.

I think here we see the confluence of European and North African styles, perhaps with this even being a European blade, and refurbished in these regions recalling known classical forms. I would concur with the date assessment of late 19th into early 20th of the assembly, and consider the possibility of the blade earlier European.

All best regards,
Jim

A. G. Maisey · 27th September 2010, 12:32 AM

I thank all for sharing their thoughts on this dagger, and especially you, Jim, for your thoughtful analysis and the undeserved compliments.

Interesting indeed. I would not have thought that we could fix something like this in North Africa, but it appears that perhaps that region may be the best bet.

Thanks again.

Ron Anderson · 27th September 2010, 03:21 AM

On this question, it has always puzzled me why Moroccan weapons include such a large number of European blades, and also patterns that have been adapted from European designs (such as this one, potentially).

This includes, Nimchas etc, which are patently non-European forms, but so often have old European blades.

Why is this? Is this evidence of Moorish influence in Southern Europe, and subsequent European counter-influence in Africa?

Personally, I prefer artefacts that are not mixed and matched in this way. However, perhaps that approach is a bit puritanical.

26th September 2010, 05:50 AM	#1
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Fearn, Having said that, my feeling is, it looks old. But not as old as 400/500 years. It's the quillons that interest me. The quillons suggest that it is European to me. And quite old. But could be as recent as 18th century. Could even be 19th century, though I don't think it's any more recent more than that. At this point, the limits of my experience have been reached. Is it possible this dagger was subsequently adapted and adopted elsewhere in Europe? I think if that were the case, it wouldn't have ventured too far from Switzerland, perhaps Austria or Hungary (and this does look like it could be a bit Eastern), or Germany, or maybe even Italy. All speculative.

26th September 2010, 06:10 AM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Sorry Ron, It's my misreading of your paragraph on the Holbein dagger. I tend to agree with you on the age of the piece (I'm guessing century or less) but I'm trying to figure out what's going on with the ricasso and the horn on the grip. Either it's a really nice, slowly corroding alloy, or someone has done a really nice job cleaning it. With the horn on the grips, it's showing only minor splits, which again argues for good care or good climate control so that the horn didn't dry out and crack. It's an interesting mix, since the blade is in rougher condition, and the guard is appears to be showing a bit of rust. It makes me wonder if it was rehilted at some point, while retaining the original guard. F

26th September 2010, 06:37 AM	#3
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	I would agree that it is not unlikely the grip has been replaced, but maybe quite a while ago. There are oils that help revitalise horn. Apparently these oils are made of cow hooves. So perhaps its just been treated recently. Also a possibility. I think it's an attractive dagger. But I haven't convinced myself entirely that it is what I've suggested. Frankly, it could be anything.

26th September 2010, 11:54 AM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	I would not be surprised if this knife from Corsica or other Med Islands especially ones that have had an Islamic influence. There are strong Spanish and Italian styles in the form. I can post pics from "Swords & Daggers, Frederick Wilkinson", "Edged Weapons, Fredrick Wilkinson" and "Swords & Bayonets, R.J. Wilkinson-Latham". All 16-17cent pieces and rather fine. This dagger is so similar but more simple with that ethnic look. Could be late 18th cent, very nice too.

26th September 2010, 04:15 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,283	I have been watching this discussion with great interest and must admit that the outstanding observations by all participating truly reflect the fascination in studying these weapons. Even the simplest appearing piece carries certain nuances that test everyones store of knowledge and recognition. I would note here also that it is virtually impossible for the extremely modest Mr.Maisey to utter anything that could possible be considered less than scholarly observation! ...so the word stupid is not in the realm of anything he says or writes so Alan we will disregard that sentence. I think what makes ethnographic weapons often such conundrums is the fact that they reflect representations of regional historical tradition as well as the influences of many colonial and trade powers throughout centuries, and thier histories as well. While this weapon seems to reflect strong European style, it is the question whether it is in fact European, and with considerable age, or from colonial or trade regions and carrying those influences. The grip is of a simple relatively convergent style with a waisted shape that is seen in countless forms on the hilts of edged weapons, and indeed was present on the previously mentioned German SA daggers introduced in 1933. Much in the same sense, these called atavistically on the traditional 15th-16th century 'Holbein' daggers as the emphasis on early heritage is often used to carry nationalistically charged motivation. It is a powerful device that is reflected in the fashioning of many weapons in more modern times that have classical or historic designs. The 'crab claw' quillons are indeed descended from European design, in particular many 'left hand' or parrying daggers which often accompanied rapiers in the late 16th-17th century. These scrolled down quillons are in turn derived from earlier Italian and Hispano-Moresque hilts which had become popular in the 15th century, and became essentially considered an Islamic feature from the Sacred Swords in Istanbul which were respectfully remounted when refurbished by the Ottomans. The presence of the encircled dot is an often appearing symbol which is among the oldest symbols known in temporal motif, being found across parts of Asia, the Indian subcontinent, and is particularly well known in the Balkans and Afghan regions and contiguous regions of Central Asia. It has become extremely prevalent in North Africa, especially from Saharan regions and into Berber regions in the Maghreb, presumably from the same trade contacts which may be the source of many weapon forms. As the simple design is of primarily solar association among other possibilities, it lends well to the key beliefs in folk religions and thought, so is understandable as a pleasantly aesthetic design. The median ridge, lozenge cross section blade is quite typical of European daggers, structurally well suited for thrusting, and characteristic of many forms used through medieval times on everything from ballocks to basilards. I believe even the more modern famed Fairburn-Sykes combat knife has a blade of this section. As this particular cross section is not in my thought typical of North African blades, the blade itself may well be European. Moving to the intriguing gold metal fretwork collar around the blade forte; here is where we really move toward the Maghreb. This type collar or bolster around the based of the hilt/blade root is somewhat characteristic of the well known 'koummya' or Moroccan janbiyya, while the dagger itself seems to be a somewhat smaller version of s'boula, produced in representation of one of the earlier European left hand daggers previously noted. I think here we see the confluence of European and North African styles, perhaps with this even being a European blade, and refurbished in these regions recalling known classical forms. I would concur with the date assessment of late 19th into early 20th of the assembly, and consider the possibility of the blade earlier European. All best regards, Jim

27th September 2010, 12:32 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I thank all for sharing their thoughts on this dagger, and especially you, Jim, for your thoughtful analysis and the undeserved compliments. Interesting indeed. I would not have thought that we could fix something like this in North Africa, but it appears that perhaps that region may be the best bet. Thanks again.

27th September 2010, 03:21 AM	#7
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	On this question, it has always puzzled me why Moroccan weapons include such a large number of European blades, and also patterns that have been adapted from European designs (such as this one, potentially). This includes, Nimchas etc, which are patently non-European forms, but so often have old European blades. Why is this? Is this evidence of Moorish influence in Southern Europe, and subsequent European counter-influence in Africa? Personally, I prefer artefacts that are not mixed and matched in this way. However, perhaps that approach is a bit puritanical.