Mystery Dagger

Tim Simmons · 25th September 2010, 05:47 PM

I believe "latten brass" is more tarnish resistant. A very yellow metal. Used for decorative brassware and famous as the copper alloy for medieval church monumental brasses. This would also has been used in Africa and Asia and still used today. I have African brass weapons on disply in the hallway open to all the kitchen steam and so on, been there well over a decade, still clean. I favour a mediterranean origin. Clearly an old piece but I do not think older than a century or two. I know little really though.

P.S. possibly similar to "naval brass" the fact that lead is not used in the alloy help resist corrosion and tarnish.

P.P.S these brasses will tarnish if buried or exposed to extremes but if kept in "normal" conditions and frequently handled they will stay tranish free. Brasses like all the GOLD kofkari and inlay we see. These people are on to it.

http://www.rings-things.com/press/an...ish_brass.html

P.P.P.S --scroll down to brasses for decorative applications.

http://www.copperinfo.co.uk/alloys/b...ight-brass.pdf

fearn · 25th September 2010, 10:43 PM

Thanks Tim. I needed a good alloy reference, but digging one out hadn't reached the top of my to-do list.

Best,

F

Ron Anderson · 26th September 2010, 05:03 AM

Hi Fearn

Please highlight the point where I suggested this item was 400/500 years old?

I'd really appreciate that, because I can't remember uttering anything of that nature.

I simply said this dagger's form resembles the Swiss Dagger and suggested that it was a direction worthy of enquiry, and that I thought it was strongly likely that it was of such a design.

I'm reasonable sure this kind of dagger has had more recent examples. Hey, even the Nazis recreated their own version.

Regards
Ron

Ron Anderson · 26th September 2010, 05:12 AM

As my knowledge on alloys is pretty unimpressive, I have to ask the obvious question:

Does pyrite tarnish?

Pyrite was certainly in use on firearms from about the 16th century.

Ron Anderson · 26th September 2010, 05:50 AM

Hi Fearn,

Having said that, my feeling is, it looks old. But not as old as 400/500 years.

It's the quillons that interest me. The quillons suggest that it is European to me. And quite old. But could be as recent as 18th century. Could even be 19th century, though I don't think it's any more recent more than that.

At this point, the limits of my experience have been reached. Is it possible this dagger was subsequently adapted and adopted elsewhere in Europe?

I think if that were the case, it wouldn't have ventured too far from Switzerland, perhaps Austria or Hungary (and this does look like it could be a bit Eastern), or Germany, or maybe even Italy.

All speculative.

fearn · 26th September 2010, 06:10 AM

Sorry Ron,

It's my misreading of your paragraph on the Holbein dagger.

I tend to agree with you on the age of the piece (I'm guessing century or less) but I'm trying to figure out what's going on with the ricasso and the horn on the grip. Either it's a really nice, slowly corroding alloy, or someone has done a really nice job cleaning it. With the horn on the grips, it's showing only minor splits, which again argues for good care or good climate control so that the horn didn't dry out and crack.

It's an interesting mix, since the blade is in rougher condition, and the guard is appears to be showing a bit of rust. It makes me wonder if it was rehilted at some point, while retaining the original guard.

F

Ron Anderson · 26th September 2010, 06:37 AM

I would agree that it is not unlikely the grip has been replaced, but maybe quite a while ago.

There are oils that help revitalise horn. Apparently these oils are made of cow hooves. So perhaps its just been treated recently.

Also a possibility.

I think it's an attractive dagger.

But I haven't convinced myself entirely that it is what I've suggested.

Frankly, it could be anything.

25th September 2010, 05:47 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I believe "latten brass" is more tarnish resistant. A very yellow metal. Used for decorative brassware and famous as the copper alloy for medieval church monumental brasses. This would also has been used in Africa and Asia and still used today. I have African brass weapons on disply in the hallway open to all the kitchen steam and so on, been there well over a decade, still clean. I favour a mediterranean origin. Clearly an old piece but I do not think older than a century or two. I know little really though. P.S. possibly similar to "naval brass" the fact that lead is not used in the alloy help resist corrosion and tarnish. P.P.S these brasses will tarnish if buried or exposed to extremes but if kept in "normal" conditions and frequently handled they will stay tranish free. Brasses like all the GOLD kofkari and inlay we see. These people are on to it. http://www.rings-things.com/press/an...ish_brass.html P.P.P.S --scroll down to brasses for decorative applications. http://www.copperinfo.co.uk/alloys/b...ight-brass.pdf Last edited by Tim Simmons; 25th September 2010 at 07:14 PM.

25th September 2010, 10:43 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Thanks Tim. I needed a good alloy reference, but digging one out hadn't reached the top of my to-do list. Best, F

26th September 2010, 05:03 AM	#3
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Fearn Please highlight the point where I suggested this item was 400/500 years old? I'd really appreciate that, because I can't remember uttering anything of that nature. I simply said this dagger's form resembles the Swiss Dagger and suggested that it was a direction worthy of enquiry, and that I thought it was strongly likely that it was of such a design. I'm reasonable sure this kind of dagger has had more recent examples. Hey, even the Nazis recreated their own version. Regards Ron

26th September 2010, 05:12 AM	#4
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	As my knowledge on alloys is pretty unimpressive, I have to ask the obvious question: Does pyrite tarnish? Pyrite was certainly in use on firearms from about the 16th century.

26th September 2010, 05:50 AM	#5
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Fearn, Having said that, my feeling is, it looks old. But not as old as 400/500 years. It's the quillons that interest me. The quillons suggest that it is European to me. And quite old. But could be as recent as 18th century. Could even be 19th century, though I don't think it's any more recent more than that. At this point, the limits of my experience have been reached. Is it possible this dagger was subsequently adapted and adopted elsewhere in Europe? I think if that were the case, it wouldn't have ventured too far from Switzerland, perhaps Austria or Hungary (and this does look like it could be a bit Eastern), or Germany, or maybe even Italy. All speculative.

26th September 2010, 06:10 AM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Sorry Ron, It's my misreading of your paragraph on the Holbein dagger. I tend to agree with you on the age of the piece (I'm guessing century or less) but I'm trying to figure out what's going on with the ricasso and the horn on the grip. Either it's a really nice, slowly corroding alloy, or someone has done a really nice job cleaning it. With the horn on the grips, it's showing only minor splits, which again argues for good care or good climate control so that the horn didn't dry out and crack. It's an interesting mix, since the blade is in rougher condition, and the guard is appears to be showing a bit of rust. It makes me wonder if it was rehilted at some point, while retaining the original guard. F

26th September 2010, 06:37 AM	#7
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	I would agree that it is not unlikely the grip has been replaced, but maybe quite a while ago. There are oils that help revitalise horn. Apparently these oils are made of cow hooves. So perhaps its just been treated recently. Also a possibility. I think it's an attractive dagger. But I haven't convinced myself entirely that it is what I've suggested. Frankly, it could be anything.