Mystery Dagger

Ron Anderson · 25th September 2010, 09:49 AM

Hi Alan

I believe we've met.

I am going to take a wild, intuitive stab and say this dagger in form reminds me of a Swiss Dagger or Baselard (Schweitzerdegen). Some of them seemed to have had those type of downpointed quillons too.

So it's not too hard for me to see this as European. I agree, I've never seen an African or even an Islamic dagger like this, but then Africa is still largely an unkown to many collectors, including myself.

But I would say it might be European, maybe Swiss, and if so it would be quite old.

That's my best guess.

Regards
Ron

Ron Anderson · 25th September 2010, 09:56 AM

Hi Gav

I agree the flatened forte with the panel within is a bit strange.

Circle motifs are not uncommon on old German swords. At least, I have one dating to the early 1700s with circle motifs on the quillons and the cup hilt.

Regards
Ron

Ron Anderson · 25th September 2010, 10:18 AM

The Swiss Dagger was also known as the Holbein Dagger, designed by someone called Hans Holbein. On the link below, you'll find an interesting sketch of the design on the dagger by Hans Holbein in the 16th century. It even shows the dagger with potential down-pointed quillons, and the curves in the hilt displayed in this one. The basic dagger design was later used for the Nazi SA dagger.

The Swiss Dagger had a diamond section double edged blade, as this one looks to have. So all in all, I'd say it's looking to be a pretty strong contender.

http://www.tate.org.uk/britain/exhib...ooms/room4.htm

fearn · 25th September 2010, 04:01 PM

Hi Ron,

So if you're saying that the blade is 400-500 years old, what do you suggest the non-tarnishing metal on the ricasso is?

Pinchbeck was invented in the 18th century, and I'm not sure it's non-corroding in any case. Red gold?

F

Tim Simmons · 25th September 2010, 05:47 PM

I believe "latten brass" is more tarnish resistant. A very yellow metal. Used for decorative brassware and famous as the copper alloy for medieval church monumental brasses. This would also has been used in Africa and Asia and still used today. I have African brass weapons on disply in the hallway open to all the kitchen steam and so on, been there well over a decade, still clean. I favour a mediterranean origin. Clearly an old piece but I do not think older than a century or two. I know little really though.

P.S. possibly similar to "naval brass" the fact that lead is not used in the alloy help resist corrosion and tarnish.

P.P.S these brasses will tarnish if buried or exposed to extremes but if kept in "normal" conditions and frequently handled they will stay tranish free. Brasses like all the GOLD kofkari and inlay we see. These people are on to it.

http://www.rings-things.com/press/an...ish_brass.html

P.P.P.S --scroll down to brasses for decorative applications.

http://www.copperinfo.co.uk/alloys/b...ight-brass.pdf

fearn · 25th September 2010, 10:43 PM

Thanks Tim. I needed a good alloy reference, but digging one out hadn't reached the top of my to-do list.

Best,

F

Ron Anderson · 26th September 2010, 05:03 AM

Hi Fearn

Please highlight the point where I suggested this item was 400/500 years old?

I'd really appreciate that, because I can't remember uttering anything of that nature.

I simply said this dagger's form resembles the Swiss Dagger and suggested that it was a direction worthy of enquiry, and that I thought it was strongly likely that it was of such a design.

I'm reasonable sure this kind of dagger has had more recent examples. Hey, even the Nazis recreated their own version.

Regards
Ron

25th September 2010, 05:47 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I believe "latten brass" is more tarnish resistant. A very yellow metal. Used for decorative brassware and famous as the copper alloy for medieval church monumental brasses. This would also has been used in Africa and Asia and still used today. I have African brass weapons on disply in the hallway open to all the kitchen steam and so on, been there well over a decade, still clean. I favour a mediterranean origin. Clearly an old piece but I do not think older than a century or two. I know little really though. P.S. possibly similar to "naval brass" the fact that lead is not used in the alloy help resist corrosion and tarnish. P.P.S these brasses will tarnish if buried or exposed to extremes but if kept in "normal" conditions and frequently handled they will stay tranish free. Brasses like all the GOLD kofkari and inlay we see. These people are on to it. http://www.rings-things.com/press/an...ish_brass.html P.P.P.S --scroll down to brasses for decorative applications. http://www.copperinfo.co.uk/alloys/b...ight-brass.pdf Last edited by Tim Simmons; 25th September 2010 at 07:14 PM.

25th September 2010, 09:49 AM	#1
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Alan I believe we've met. I am going to take a wild, intuitive stab and say this dagger in form reminds me of a Swiss Dagger or Baselard (Schweitzerdegen). Some of them seemed to have had those type of downpointed quillons too. So it's not too hard for me to see this as European. I agree, I've never seen an African or even an Islamic dagger like this, but then Africa is still largely an unkown to many collectors, including myself. But I would say it might be European, maybe Swiss, and if so it would be quite old. That's my best guess. Regards Ron

25th September 2010, 09:56 AM	#2
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Gav I agree the flatened forte with the panel within is a bit strange. Circle motifs are not uncommon on old German swords. At least, I have one dating to the early 1700s with circle motifs on the quillons and the cup hilt. Regards Ron

25th September 2010, 10:18 AM	#3
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	The Swiss Dagger was also known as the Holbein Dagger, designed by someone called Hans Holbein. On the link below, you'll find an interesting sketch of the design on the dagger by Hans Holbein in the 16th century. It even shows the dagger with potential down-pointed quillons, and the curves in the hilt displayed in this one. The basic dagger design was later used for the Nazi SA dagger. The Swiss Dagger had a diamond section double edged blade, as this one looks to have. So all in all, I'd say it's looking to be a pretty strong contender. http://www.tate.org.uk/britain/exhib...ooms/room4.htm

25th September 2010, 04:01 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Ron, So if you're saying that the blade is 400-500 years old, what do you suggest the non-tarnishing metal on the ricasso is? Pinchbeck was invented in the 18th century, and I'm not sure it's non-corroding in any case. Red gold? F

25th September 2010, 10:43 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Thanks Tim. I needed a good alloy reference, but digging one out hadn't reached the top of my to-do list. Best, F

26th September 2010, 05:03 AM	#7
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Fearn Please highlight the point where I suggested this item was 400/500 years old? I'd really appreciate that, because I can't remember uttering anything of that nature. I simply said this dagger's form resembles the Swiss Dagger and suggested that it was a direction worthy of enquiry, and that I thought it was strongly likely that it was of such a design. I'm reasonable sure this kind of dagger has had more recent examples. Hey, even the Nazis recreated their own version. Regards Ron