Origin of the term Eisenhauer

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Dmitry and Jim,

Being a German native speaker, I have tried my best to do research on the term Eisenhauer because it doubtlessly is German.

After leafing thru some 15th and 16th century sources it first seemed to go back to the diggers in the iron mines who dug the iron strands out of the rock. From the 16th century onwards, though, it seems to have been used not only for blade smiths but synonymous of nearly all weapon smiths. By that time, too, it had developed into a common familly name many of which stem from the kind of the former craft of the guy given. Another simlilar name is Eisenmenger (iron mingler), which seems to refer more strictly to the smiths who mixed various sorts of iron in order to get optimum quality steel.

Of course, President Dwight D. Eisenhower had, among others, German ancestors.
I have not been able to trace back the family name Eisenhauer to a manufacturer of blades but in all probability there must have been somebody with that name the quality of whose blades became synonymous of good blades in general and, in consequence, was often copied by other bladesmiths - just like the Passau or Solingen wolf marks.

Hoping to have been helpful,
best,
Michael

Hi Michael,
Thank you so much for this information, and its really helpful to have inside information from these early German sources, which I know you know so thoroughly with the amazing research you always present here. It does indeed seem that so many family names evolved from trade characteristics as one of the many roots . I had not thought of the 'mingling' of iron, as we know the manner for forging pattern welded blades.

Interesting note on our former president Dwight D. Eisenhower also!

Outstanding information Michael, much appreciated,
All the best,
Jim

[katana]

Checking 'Babelfish' I have found that 'Eisenhauer' does not directly translate. Checking 'eisen' and 'hauer', as seperate words gives iron and hauer (ie no translated word)

However, eisen and haue ( I removed the 'r') is iron strike, this ties in neatly with Michael's post......afterall couldn't a blade/blacksmith be discribed as an 'iron striker'. Perhaps the term is not to do with the quality of the steel...but the quality of the blades's manufacture ??

Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by katana

Checking 'Babelfish' I have found that 'Eisenhauer' does not directly translate. Checking 'eisen' and 'hauer', as seperate words gives iron and hauer (ie no translated word)

However, eisen and haue ( I removed the 'r') is iron strike, this ties in neatly with Michael's post......afterall couldn't a blade/blacksmith be discribed as an 'iron striker'. Perhaps the term is not to do with the quality of the steel...but the quality of the blades's manufacture ??

Regards David

Very well noted David! From my slowly growing understanding of metallurgy, it is the technique and processes of the forger which accomplishes the quality of the steel. In the discussion on wootz on a concurrent thread, one of the reasons that the secrets of wootz were essentially 'lost' was that ore supplies which inadvertantly carried trace elements became exhausted as well as British orders to cease production in those regions ended the source.
Since the ore supply was no longer available, and smiths were unaware that these minerals were key to the process, they could not properly reaccomplish the same grade of wootz steel.
The quality of Solingen steel is not only in the ore, but the forging process.

All best regards,
Jim

[mrwizard]

just a small remark from my side to stating the obvious:
'babelfish' is hardly a reference for the german language of the 19th century.

Luckily, two brothers that are more famous for their collection of folk-tales, compiled a dictionary exactly at that time.
There is no "Eisenhauer" in the dictionary but the meaning of the word "Hauer" is explained in detail:
http://www.woerterbuchnetz.de/DWB/wbgui_py?lemma=hauer

There "Hauer" is directly connected with
- miners
- woodcutters
- several tools where just "hammer" would not be appropiate
- any slashing weapon
- the male wild boar
- the fangs of a male wild boar
- someone who strikes
- the act of striking itself

And in combination with a list of prefix words for several other trades (eg. Steinhauer for stone mason)
Strangely there is no mention of smithing there.

Does all this help us in explaining why there is the word "Eisenhauer" on some of the blades? No, it doesn't!

I don't think that there is a linguistic answer to that question. IMHO as long as we don't discover any
contempory text explaining the reason behind putting "Eisenhauer" on the blades we may as well
continue discussing the incription of "+VLFBERH+T" on some 9th century blades...

Best Regards,
Thilo

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Thilo,
Interesting views concerning perspective on the use of the term 'eisenhauer' on German blades, as an apparant mark of quality implying the 'ability to cut iron'.
As you have noted, linguistically it is often difficult to analyze these terms as they occur on sword blades as they seem to be of antiquated vernacular or similarly idioms with the contemporary meaning long lost. As with trying to evaluate or comprehend early metaphoric use of terms in literature or contemporary narrative, often we can only presume or speculate.

As we have discussed, the specific use of the term 'eisenhauer' as far as can be determined did not appear in that form and on sword blades until most likely late in the first quarter of the 19th century. We do know that the prefix 'eisen' is of course the modern German spelling of the Middle High German 'isen' (=iron). The Middle High German term 'houwan' apparantly meant 'to hew' , which of course is known to mean to cut with blows of a heavy cutting instrument. Whether the term might have had its spelling altered is of course a matter of further speculation, but the change to 'er' might have been used in descriptive sense of the object. I'm obviously no linguist so that is of course assumption on my part.

The reference you note of course by the Brothers Grimm, was I believe compiled in the 1830s, and at which time the term hauer of course was probably not joined with 'eisen' in the parlance we are discussing for use on blades, as it appears to not yet have been in use. The closest evidence we have for its use perhaps earlier is the sabres that Dmitry has shown, and it is difficult to state for certain that they do not date into the 1820s or 30s, despite the evidence noted.

We do know that by 1884, a Victorian reference notes a formidable German blade by this term, "...as the modern German 'eisenhauer' hews through the iron of a fence". It would appear by then to be an idiom used to herald the powerful quality of a German blade. References in Bezdek and Walter on German swords note the 'eisenhauerklinge' (iron cutting blade) as mentioned in post #8.

Since catalogs, references and directories do not appear to list a maker named Eisenhauer, and with the descriptive and as noted, apparantly occupational nature of the term, I think we can safely presume it must be a marketing and quality claiming device or brand type term as might be expected in these commercially competitive times.

As for the well known 'Ulfberht' on the famed 9th century blades, it seems generally accepted that rather than being a makers name, it is more likely an idiomatic term signifying a warrior. The word appears not only on the Frankish blades but also on crucible steel examples of blade produced to the east and marketed to the Rus (A. Williams). The practice of pronouncement of quality and strength on sword blades has been well known into the earliest times, and most understandable as a warriors life often depended on his blade.

Although of course we cannot pronounce conclusively these known factors prove that either eisenhauer, or ulfbehrt, or as previously mentioned; Andrea Ferara, Sahagum, or others were terms rather than names...I believe that the evidence suggests that they were.

All best regards,
Jim

[mrwizard]

I just discovered another reference:
According to "Gerhard Seifert: Fachwörterbuch der Blankwaffenkunde" the origin of the term could be (obviously he himself has no proof) the "Nagelprobe" (nail test) where the blade must be able to cut through an iron nail without getting damaged. The term "Eisenhauer" would then be applied to blades that pass this test.
Later on this evolved to a description of a special grind: the Eisenhauerschliff, which is basically a kind of convex grind.
According to this source trademark Eisenhauer would be just a word describing the grind of the blade.
He also gives references to the use in other languages:
Yzerhouwer (dutch), jernhugger (danish), coup de fer (french)

[katana]

Originally Posted by mrwizard

just a small remark from my side to stating the obvious:
'babelfish' is hardly a reference for the german language of the 19th century.

I agree, but with limited knowledge of the German language it is extremely useful to me.

Originally Posted by mrwizard

Luckily, two brothers that are more famous for their collection of folk-tales, compiled a dictionary exactly at that time.
There is no "Eisenhauer" in the dictionary but the meaning of the word "Hauer" is explained in detail:
http://www.woerterbuchnetz.de/DWB/wbgui_py?lemma=hauer

There "Hauer" is directly connected with
- miners
- woodcutters
- several tools where just "hammer" would not be appropiate
- any slashing weapon
- the male wild boar
- the fangs of a male wild boar
- someone who strikes
- the act of striking itself

There are words in English, spelt the same but with differing meanings....and, as you have shown, the same occurs in German. Obviously the context of the word etc within a sentence allows the reader to understand the meaning of the word without using a dictionary to check the various possible meanings and then deciding which 'discription' fits the sentence. I used a translation programme which would probably work in a similar manner....I had 'eisen' with 'haue(r)' so, perhaps that is why I did not get, for instance 'iron male boar'. I'll assume that 'iron' matched 'strike' as a better translation.
I am not arguing the merits of Bablefish, but two of your 19th C dictionary meanings involve the word 'strike'.

Originally Posted by mrwizard

And in combination with a list of prefix words for several other trades (eg. Steinhauer for stone mason)
Strangely there is no mention of smithing there.

You have already mentioned that 'eisenhauer' was not in the 19th C German dictionary you quoted.....a word that was, it seems, known and used on a number of 19thC German produced blades ?? Perhaps, it was not a 'concise' version.
However, I made a possible assumption that 'eisenhauer' was a reference to blade/black smith (in fact one of your definitions was 'any slashing weapon') so, possibly,even slashing weapon maker.
If 'hauer' is a craftsman or trade and then prefixed with 'iron' this is not an unreasonable assumption.(so perhaps Babelfish is not as bad as you stated)

Originally Posted by mrwizard

Does all this help us in explaining why there is the word "Eisenhauer" on some of the blades? No, it doesn't! .

To make such a bold statement you must, in fact, know why 'eisenhauer' is on some blades. I was just suggesting that the mark may not be a sign of the quality of the steel but, an indication of the skill of it's manufacture. It may help....it may not....it is just an suggestion.

Originally Posted by mrwizard

I don't think that there is a linguistic answer to that question. IMHO as long as we don't discover any
contempory text explaining the reason behind putting "Eisenhauer" on the blades we may as well
continue discussing the incription of "+VLFBERH+T" on some 9th century blades... .

You could well be right, but waiting and hoping the answers will suddenly 'materialise' is not 'my way' . Trying to find answers to questions often further knowledge and understanding. Wrong ideas or theories may lead to 'nowhere' ....but you wouldn't find out if they are incorrect....until proven otherwise. Even respected researchers have modified or even changed their views due to new evidence etc.

Just an afterthought, your 'hauser' definitions included woodcutter ....eisen hauer....iron woodcutter ? .....we call him the 'Tin man'

Come Toto, the games afoot

Regards David

.

[mrwizard]

Originally Posted by katana

I agree, but with limited knowledge of the German language it is extremely useful to me.

Just to avoid any misunderstandings: my posting was in
no way meant to attack personally. I just wanted to point
out that the language spoken today is quite different from the language spoken 150 years ago.
Even today it is very difficult for a non native speaker (sometimes even for native speakers) to follow a conversation in certain parts of germany.

Starting 1838 the brothers Grimm compiled a dictionary with the goal to contain all german words since the 16th century, their meaning, and their origin.
It was not finished until 123 years later (of course not by the brother). It has 32 Volumes and explains about 320.000 index-words. So if you want to figure out something about a german word you look it up first in Grimms dictionary.

As i know you and most others in the forum don't speak
german i took the freedom to look it up for you and translate the main findings. Sadly - reading my own post - i understand that this could have been misunderstood as arrogance. I apologize for that (and for this post for that matter).

Originally Posted by katana

[...]
To make such a bold statement you must, in fact, know why 'eisenhauer' is on some blades. I was just suggesting that the mark may not be a sign of the quality of the steel but, an indication of the skill of it's manufacture. It may help....it may not....it is just an suggestion.

What i wanted to state is the following:
Even if we found linguistic evidence of the origin of the term "Eisenhauer". There is still no evidence why it ended up being etched onto a blade.

We have the thesis that it just a special word that stands a high quality of craftmanship, like a family name.
This would make sense if the inscription was made only for advertisement and "Made by dwarfs in their magic kingdom by repeatedly striking at iron" would be too long to fit on the blade

We have another thesis mentioned right in the first post that it is a quality seal that ensures a special ability.
In this case the ability to cut-iron. Makes sense too,
as it is useful for advertising and very precise in what
kind of special ability the blade has. I think this is the
most likely.

We have the third thesis that i posted in my last post.
That it originally meant the ability to cut iron but later
evolved into another word for convex grind. Less useful
for advertising but even more precise in a certain
property of the blade.

But after all it is all speculation.

[katana]

Hi Thilo,
I appreciate you taking the time to expand and explain your previous postings, thank you. I also did not realise the importance (or was aware ) of the Dictionary compiled by the brothers Grimm .....I do now .

I also appreciate that this forum is multi-national and multi-cultural and sometimes misunderstandings do occur.

I have obviously 'mis-read' the 'tone' of your posting and wish to apologise also.

All the best

Kind Regards David