Mystery Dagger

[katana]

Hi Alan,
the 'gold' like decoration could be 'pinchbeck' an alloy of copper and zinc, used as a cheaper gold substitute. Invented in the 18thC ....its use diminished, in Europe, around mid 19th C. If discovered to be this alloy, it could help date the dagger.

Regards David

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, I thought possibly pinchbeck, but I doubt that I can get this tested to confirm, so it was safer to say "not gold".

In fact, this has the feel of something with considerable age, but because it is well and truly outside my area of expertise I really don't want to go making comments that could appear to be stupid to somebody with knowledge in this field.

[Gavin Nugent]

An interesting dagger.

My thoughts lay in a few places of origins from the Algerian regions to Afghanistan regions. I suggest both because of the horn used, the circle motifs to the quillons, the fretwork to the 'gold' panel in the forte and the type of manufacture, by type I mean the look of the weapon.
If I was to pick one over the other, Algeria would have my money. The quillon shape shown, to me shows Moorish influence of old as does the fretwork panel and he block forte it sits in, if I was to guess the age I would say 1890-1920s....

My 2 cents, lets see what others have to say...

Gav

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your opinion Gavin.

Interesting, I would not have considered the areas you mention. I've had a few North African things in the past and this dagger doesn't seem to show similar workmanship, it looks and feels more European to me, but as I've already said, I have very little knowledge in this area, so it could well be North African.

I'll be interested to see if we have any other opinions put forward.

Thanks again.

[Gavin Nugent]

Just my opinon and I too look forward to further imput but I feel if this was European, my guess is that it wouldn't have the circle motifs to the quillons nor the flattened forte with the panel within, I'd expect to see the same form in Europe but the medial ridge would continue to the hilt...just my thoughts.
Gav

[Ron Anderson]

Hi Alan

I believe we've met.

I am going to take a wild, intuitive stab and say this dagger in form reminds me of a Swiss Dagger or Baselard (Schweitzerdegen). Some of them seemed to have had those type of downpointed quillons too.

So it's not too hard for me to see this as European. I agree, I've never seen an African or even an Islamic dagger like this, but then Africa is still largely an unkown to many collectors, including myself.

But I would say it might be European, maybe Swiss, and if so it would be quite old.

That's my best guess.

Regards
Ron

[Ron Anderson]

Hi Gav

I agree the flatened forte with the panel within is a bit strange.

Circle motifs are not uncommon on old German swords. At least, I have one dating to the early 1700s with circle motifs on the quillons and the cup hilt.

Regards
Ron

[Ron Anderson]

The Swiss Dagger was also known as the Holbein Dagger, designed by someone called Hans Holbein. On the link below, you'll find an interesting sketch of the design on the dagger by Hans Holbein in the 16th century. It even shows the dagger with potential down-pointed quillons, and the curves in the hilt displayed in this one. The basic dagger design was later used for the Nazi SA dagger.

The Swiss Dagger had a diamond section double edged blade, as this one looks to have. So all in all, I'd say it's looking to be a pretty strong contender.



http://www.tate.org.uk/britain/exhib...ooms/room4.htm

[fearn]

Hi Ron,

So if you're saying that the blade is 400-500 years old, what do you suggest the non-tarnishing metal on the ricasso is?

Pinchbeck was invented in the 18th century, and I'm not sure it's non-corroding in any case. Red gold?

F