Hunting Tigers with Katars: Fact or fiction?

David · 21st September 2010, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Gotta love that picture, slashing with the back of the kukri...

I don't think so Fearn. The kukri hooks inward on the bladed side. I believe the slashing direction is in a roundhouse motion towards the tiger. He is indeed giving the tiger the edge side in this illustration.

fearn · 21st September 2010, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I don't think so Fearn. The kukri hooks inward on the bladed side. I believe the slashing direction is in a roundhouse motion towards the tiger. He is indeed giving the tiger the edge side in this illustration.

If he's chopping, he's got his hand behind his shoulder and he's swinging forward. As the blade connects, he could dislocate his shoulder. Moreover, his elbow is facing backward and straight, so if he's swinging, it's from the shoulder and waist alone. This is one where it's a good idea to try this with a stick against a wall. Do be careful, because if you put force into it, it's going to hurt.

F

F

bhushan_lawate · 21st September 2010, 05:09 AM

Hi,

I guess we should take these as stray instances which went on to become legends. I do not believe this could have existed as a common practice.

Though I'm aware of a couple of instances and have also had a rare privilege of meeting a man (sadly now no more) who had killed a leopard with a sickle.

He was 95 when I met him a few years back in the jungles of Western Ghats.

However, these will be one off cases when people in self defense used what ever was available.

Regards,
Bhushan

David · 21st September 2010, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

If he's chopping, he's got his hand behind his shoulder and he's swinging forward. As the blade connects, he could dislocate his shoulder. Moreover, his elbow is facing backward and straight, so if he's swinging, it's from the shoulder and waist alone. This is one where it's a good idea to try this with a stick against a wall. Do be careful, because if you put force into it, it's going to hurt.

It's just a drawing Fearn, i was merely pointing out that the swing is indeed moving foward with the blade edge towards the tiger. The physics and dynamics of whether or not this would be a successful cut on the Gurkha's part is not really at issue for me. I also don't think that the illustration's martial accuracy can be used as a basis to dismiss the stories of the practice all together. The artist might not have much knowledge of the proper arm position necessary to make the most effective cut on the tiger and in all probability wasn't even at the event if it actually occurred. It was most probably related to him later and he merely illustrated it. If he was on the scene it would have happened so fast (as that amazing video illustrated) that he wouldn't have accurately seen what happened anyway.

VANDOO · 21st September 2010, 05:10 PM

A FEW PICTURES JUST FOR PERSPECTIVE. A 6 FOOT MAN WITH ODIN AND ODIN SWIMMING YEP TIGERS LIKE TO SWIM UNLIKE THEIR SMALLER KIN THE HOUSE CAT. WHICH ONE WOULD YOU CONSIDER HUNTING IN THE JUNGLE WITH A KNIFE OF ANY SORT.
PERHAPS SOMEONE WAS ATTACKED AND SURVIVED AND KILLED A TIGER AND THE LEGENDS AND STORIES GREW. ANYONE WITH A CLEAR MIND WOULD NOT RISK LIFE AND LIMB ON SUCH A HUNT ESPECIALLY RAJAHS AND KINGS WHO HAD MUCH TO LOSE. RULERS ARE USUALLY SMART OR THEY WOULDN'T BECOME RULERS OR REMAIN IN POWER LONG.

fearn · 21st September 2010, 05:23 PM

Love it Vandoo!

I'm commenting particularly on the Victorian picture, where the dynamics are all wrong. As I said, go try it out (either with a kukri or without) and see how well you can cut by following that picture. I already watched someone dislocate his shoulder trying to swing his arm that way against pressure, and I don't need to be convinced.

As for killing tigers, I'm glad Vandoo posted those pictures to give an idea of the scale of a real tiger, and that YouTube video gives a pretty good idea of how fast they pounce and from how far away. Cuddly they aren't, but they are magnificent animals.

Best,

F

fernando · 21st September 2010, 05:31 PM

It seems as the house cat picture falls off both perspective and topic

.

VANDOO · 21st September 2010, 06:05 PM

THE HOUSE CAT IS THERE STRICTLY FOR FUN I FIND A SENSE OF HUMOR MORE AND MORE IMPORTANT AS I GET OLDER. VANITY AND A SENSE OF CORRECTNESS OR CONFORMITY I HAVE DISCARDED LONG AGO, BUT MY SENSE OF HUMOR CONTINUES TO SEE ME THRU LIFE WELL.

A GOOD LAUGH IS NEVER A WASTE OF TIME.
BUT CATS BIG AND LITTLE ARE APEX PREADATORS IN THEIR OWN ENVIRONMENTS.

fearn · 21st September 2010, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE HOUSE CAT IS THERE STRICTLY FOR FUN I FIND A SENSE OF HUMOR MORE AND MORE IMPORTANT AS I GET OLDER. VANITY AND A SENSE OF CORRECTNESS OR CONFORMITY I HAVE DISCARDED LONG AGO, BUT MY SENSE OF HUMOR CONTINUES TO SEE ME THRU LIFE WELL.

A GOOD LAUGH IS NEVER A WASTE OF TIME.
BUT CATS BIG AND LITTLE ARE APEX PREADATORS IN THEIR OWN ENVIRONMENTS.

You noticed!

F's cat (don't tell him)

fernando · 21st September 2010, 06:43 PM

Hi Barry,
I find that amazing

.
I am about the same age as you and i find no conflict in growing humor together with an increasing sense of correctness

.
But naturaly i admit this is a subjective conviction, as also could be different people's perspective of sense of humor ... or fun

.
Meaning we don't all necessarily laugh at the same things ... not meaning we don't all like to laugh

.
Yours humbly

.

fernando · 21st September 2010, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

... WHICH ONE WOULD YOU CONSIDER HUNTING IN THE JUNGLE WITH A KNIFE OF ANY SORT.
PERHAPS SOMEONE WAS ATTACKED AND SURVIVED AND KILLED A TIGER AND THE LEGENDS AND STORIES GREW. ANYONE WITH A CLEAR MIND WOULD NOT RISK LIFE AND LIMB ON SUCH A HUNT ESPECIALLY RAJAHS AND KINGS WHO HAD MUCH TO LOSE. RULERS ARE USUALLY SMART OR THEY WOULDN'T BECOME RULERS OR REMAIN IN POWER LONG.

Mostly true,
Still we have to consider that the sense of survival and all those values weren't so extreme a few centuries ago.
Leaders used to go into battle in front of their troops and only 'the other day' they started positioning themselves in the back stage.
You take Rajputs, the originators of the katar; for them, war was almost a sport. In the 1490's Rana Kombah sent his son Prithi Raj put down a rebellion started by the Rana's brother Soorajmal. During battle, at the end of the day, uncle and nephew camped in sight of each other, the nephew visiting his uncle's tent, asking him for his wounds, and eating dinner off the same platter. When leaving the tent,the nephew assured his uncle that they would finish their battle in the morning and the uncle recomended him to be early on the field.
I wouldn't be surprised if guys with such life disdain would engage a fight with a tiger bearing only blades ... if circumstances arose.
Ah, by the way, Prithi Raj won the battle.

David · 21st September 2010, 07:24 PM

"... WHICH ONE WOULD YOU CONSIDER HUNTING IN THE JUNGLE WITH A KNIFE OF ANY SORT."

Exactly Fernando, which is why "which one of YOU" is not the kind of question we need to ask here.

fearn · 21st September 2010, 07:50 PM

I'd point out (again) that there's an enormous difference between *killing* a tiger with a katar, and hunting a tiger *armed only* with a katar or a kukri.

I can believe the first one, for reasons cited by others. It's certainly possible to kill a tiger with a large blade, especially if the tiger is immobilized or seriously injured. The second one? That's in the crazy/brave category.

Best,

F

21st September 2010, 05:10 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A FEW PICTURES JUST FOR PERSPECTIVE. A 6 FOOT MAN WITH ODIN AND ODIN SWIMMING YEP TIGERS LIKE TO SWIM UNLIKE THEIR SMALLER KIN THE HOUSE CAT. WHICH ONE WOULD YOU CONSIDER HUNTING IN THE JUNGLE WITH A KNIFE OF ANY SORT. PERHAPS SOMEONE WAS ATTACKED AND SURVIVED AND KILLED A TIGER AND THE LEGENDS AND STORIES GREW. ANYONE WITH A CLEAR MIND WOULD NOT RISK LIFE AND LIMB ON SUCH A HUNT ESPECIALLY RAJAHS AND KINGS WHO HAD MUCH TO LOSE. RULERS ARE USUALLY SMART OR THEY WOULDN'T BECOME RULERS OR REMAIN IN POWER LONG. Attached Images

21st September 2010, 05:09 AM	#3
bhushan_lawate Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: India Posts: 77	Hi, I guess we should take these as stray instances which went on to become legends. I do not believe this could have existed as a common practice. Though I'm aware of a couple of instances and have also had a rare privilege of meeting a man (sadly now no more) who had killed a leopard with a sickle. He was 95 when I met him a few years back in the jungles of Western Ghats. However, these will be one off cases when people in self defense used what ever was available. Regards, Bhushan

21st September 2010, 05:23 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Love it Vandoo! I'm commenting particularly on the Victorian picture, where the dynamics are all wrong. As I said, go try it out (either with a kukri or without) and see how well you can cut by following that picture. I already watched someone dislocate his shoulder trying to swing his arm that way against pressure, and I don't need to be convinced. As for killing tigers, I'm glad Vandoo posted those pictures to give an idea of the scale of a real tiger, and that YouTube video gives a pretty good idea of how fast they pounce and from how far away. Cuddly they aren't, but they are magnificent animals. Best, F

21st September 2010, 05:31 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	It seems as the house cat picture falls off both perspective and topic .

21st September 2010, 06:05 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE HOUSE CAT IS THERE STRICTLY FOR FUN I FIND A SENSE OF HUMOR MORE AND MORE IMPORTANT AS I GET OLDER. VANITY AND A SENSE OF CORRECTNESS OR CONFORMITY I HAVE DISCARDED LONG AGO, BUT MY SENSE OF HUMOR CONTINUES TO SEE ME THRU LIFE WELL. A GOOD LAUGH IS NEVER A WASTE OF TIME. BUT CATS BIG AND LITTLE ARE APEX PREADATORS IN THEIR OWN ENVIRONMENTS.

21st September 2010, 06:43 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Barry, I find that amazing . I am about the same age as you and i find no conflict in growing humor together with an increasing sense of correctness . But naturaly i admit this is a subjective conviction, as also could be different people's perspective of sense of humor ... or fun . Meaning we don't all necessarily laugh at the same things ... not meaning we don't all like to laugh . Yours humbly .

21st September 2010, 07:24 PM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	"... WHICH ONE WOULD YOU CONSIDER HUNTING IN THE JUNGLE WITH A KNIFE OF ANY SORT." Exactly Fernando, which is why "which one of YOU" is not the kind of question we need to ask here.

21st September 2010, 07:50 PM	#13
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'd point out (again) that there's an enormous difference between killing a tiger with a katar, and hunting a tiger armed only with a katar or a kukri. I can believe the first one, for reasons cited by others. It's certainly possible to kill a tiger with a large blade, especially if the tiger is immobilized or seriously injured. The second one? That's in the crazy/brave category. Best, F