Ancestor hilt or tourist piece?

Rick · 14th September 2010, 10:59 PM

That Singha in horn you have, David; I always figured that was a betel crusher handle .

David · 14th September 2010, 11:27 PM

Yes Rick, i thought about that, but this one is also a women with a "bun" on her head so i saw more similarities with Mr. Wizard's hilt.

PenangsangII · 15th September 2010, 03:12 AM

It does not matter whether the hilt is meant for sireh crusher, as long as it serves as a handle pretty well on a keris. Maybe the keris used to be owned by "wong ndeso", so the aesthetic might not be that important.

I remember reading somewhere in Babad Demak and Babad Jaka Tingkir, the sireh crusher (known as "sadak" in Jawanese, and "gobek" in Malay) was used by Jaka Tingkir to kill a guy name Dadung Awuk who challenged him to a duel. It's said that "sadak" can overcome a person with invulnerability.

David · 15th September 2010, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

It does not matter whether the hilt is meant for sireh crusher, as long as it serves as a handle pretty well on a keris. Maybe the keris used to be owned by "wong ndeso", so the aesthetic might not be that important.

I remember reading somewhere in Babad Demak and Babad Jaka Tingkir, the sireh crusher (known as "sadak" in Jawanese, and "gobek" in Malay) was used by Jaka Tingkir to kill a guy name Dadung Awuk who challenged him to a duel. It's said that "sadak" can overcome a person with invulnerability.

I don't think anyone has commented on whether it matters or not, simply trying to determine what it's origins.

Alam Shah · 15th September 2010, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Yes Rick, i thought about that, but this one is also a women with a "bun" on her head so i saw more similarities with Mr. Wizard's hilt.

Hmmm.. I thought it looks a little like Sumatran Batak.. but maybe not..

A. G. Maisey · 15th September 2010, 04:37 AM

Actually Penangsang, "sadak" in Javanese is the betel leaf when it has been rolled into a point with lime in it, ready for chewing. When the bride meets the groom at wedding ceremony, they both throw a sadak onto the floor.

These pestles pictured are for crushing lime and are called "pelecok", from the word "lecok" which becomes "nglecok" : to crush, "dilecok" : crushed.

When you think about it, yes, of course a sadak can overcome invulnerability, because friendship overcomes invulnerability and a sadak can be offered in friendship. Words do not always mean what they might appear to mean.

In Indonesian, which as we know has its origin in Malay as it is spoken in South Sumatra, "gobek" refers to the entire mortar + pestle that is used to crush a complete betel chew to make it easier to consume. I do not know what the pestle alone is called in Indonesian.

PenangsangII · 15th September 2010, 06:05 AM

Ah... yes, you are right Alan, I stand corrected... sadak is the rolled betel leave, and (was said) used by Jaka Tingkir to kill Dadung Awuk. And I also understand that words do not always mean what they might appear to mean, as the duel with Dadung Awok mentioned could just be a metaphor of what jaka Tingkir had done to warrant a punishment (stripped of his position and outcast).

And you are also right about gobek

back to the topic, IMPO, keris of pusoko standard among wong ndeso does not really care about aesthetic, compatibility blade to wrongko or ukiran. As Mrwizard pointed out earlier, the hilt struck very close resemblance to tau-tau statue of Toraja, i think the blade and hilt originated in Sulawesi.

Though Toraja people are not keris bearers, some of their pusakas are actually keris, made in South Sulawesi (ref: Kris Disk by Karsten Sejr Jensen)

David · 15th September 2010, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hmmm.. I thought it looks a little like Sumatran Batak.. but maybe not..

Well, i think mine definitely looks Batak. See the statue below. I also made the assumption that Mr.Wizard's hilt depicted a woman, not based on the hair style as much as the breasts, so i am not so sure that this is a priest. Of course i might be misreading these clues. This statue is Batak and there are obvious connects to my hilt in the hair style. Mr. Wizard's is stylistically rougher, but seems to depict a similar figure.

Alam Shah · 15th September 2010, 04:48 PM

Ok, disregard the 'priest-like' comment.. the breasts looks more woman-like..

Looking in Bambang Harsrinuksmo's 'Ensiklopedi Keris', pg 500.. there are 2 examples of ancestor hilts from Nusa Tenggara Timur.. in a different pose, but worksmanship of similar type.. which indicate that besides Sumatra, these type of hilts, do exist elsewhere in the Indonesian Archipelago.

mrwizard · 15th September 2010, 08:43 PM

Thanks again to a contributors. :-)

Just in case someone wondered about my lack of feedback: I didn't abandon this thread, but because as new member my posts are moderated and didn't appear until a few hours ago (see post #8 and #12) ;-)

@David
I'm not sure if the hair looks like the batak hair-style on the statue it is more round (see attached pictures) and i also think the person depicted is female but the carving style looks very similar.

@PenangsangII
The hilt fullfils it's purpose for sure. It fits very well and provides good hand contact for stabbing moves. And I'm also sure even equipped with a sireh pestle it would be a formidable weapon in the right hands.
It also think it is quite possible that the hilt was made be a non keris-carrying culture to decorate the keris as a family pusaka. But of that, i think, we will never know.

@Alam Shah
You are probably right this could have originated anywhere in S.E. Asia. This thread shows example of similar craftmanship across the whole area, spanning several cultures. And then there remains always the possibility that it has been made by an "independent artist" that doesn't follow a certain cultural style.

I think what can be said for sure is that this keris hilt doesn't fit in any mainstream category, else one of the many experts here would have identified it.
And that there are several examples of similar artwork within many different places and cultures in the area.
So, until someone comes up with a very similar specimen from a known source all we dicuss here is just wild speculating.
For know i will just file the keris under "one-of-a-kind-hodgepodge" ;-)

Best Regards,
Thilo

A. G. Maisey · 16th September 2010, 12:58 AM

When we consider the keris, or anything else for that matter, we tend to look at it in terms of what we know to be true at the present time. Where the dress for keris is concerned we are accustomed to seeing wrongkos and hilts that have been crafted by artisan craftsmen with usually very high levels of skill.

But consider this:- in some societies in Maritime SE Asia, even up to recent times, the dress of the weapon was crafted by the owner. The hilts in particular were a homage to ancestors, or a personal hope for protection of deities or spirits, and the skill shown in carving these hilts was an advertisement for the personal qualities of the carver . This advertisement was noted by women as an indication of his suitability as a husband.

Even now I have known people in Bali to carve their own keris hilt, and in Jawa for people to carve their own wrongko.

This keris under discussion could well be a composite that has been put together for one reason or another, however , the hilt could well be an owner's personal effort to provide something usable. Once you move away from the influence of the kratons it seems to me that almost anything goes in respect of keris dress.

15th September 2010, 04:48 PM	#9
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Ok, disregard the 'priest-like' comment.. the breasts looks more woman-like.. Looking in Bambang Harsrinuksmo's 'Ensiklopedi Keris', pg 500.. there are 2 examples of ancestor hilts from Nusa Tenggara Timur.. in a different pose, but worksmanship of similar type.. which indicate that besides Sumatra, these type of hilts, do exist elsewhere in the Indonesian Archipelago. Last edited by Alam Shah; 15th September 2010 at 05:57 PM.

15th September 2010, 08:43 PM	#10
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	Thanks again to a contributors. :-) Just in case someone wondered about my lack of feedback: I didn't abandon this thread, but because as new member my posts are moderated and didn't appear until a few hours ago (see post #8 and #12) ;-) @David I'm not sure if the hair looks like the batak hair-style on the statue it is more round (see attached pictures) and i also think the person depicted is female but the carving style looks very similar. @PenangsangII The hilt fullfils it's purpose for sure. It fits very well and provides good hand contact for stabbing moves. And I'm also sure even equipped with a sireh pestle it would be a formidable weapon in the right hands. It also think it is quite possible that the hilt was made be a non keris-carrying culture to decorate the keris as a family pusaka. But of that, i think, we will never know. @Alam Shah You are probably right this could have originated anywhere in S.E. Asia. This thread shows example of similar craftmanship across the whole area, spanning several cultures. And then there remains always the possibility that it has been made by an "independent artist" that doesn't follow a certain cultural style. I think what can be said for sure is that this keris hilt doesn't fit in any mainstream category, else one of the many experts here would have identified it. And that there are several examples of similar artwork within many different places and cultures in the area. So, until someone comes up with a very similar specimen from a known source all we dicuss here is just wild speculating. For know i will just file the keris under "one-of-a-kind-hodgepodge" ;-) Best Regards, Thilo Attached Images Last edited by mrwizard; 15th September 2010 at 08:44 PM. Reason: forgot attachment

14th September 2010, 10:59 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	That Singha in horn you have, David; I always figured that was a betel crusher handle .

14th September 2010, 11:27 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Yes Rick, i thought about that, but this one is also a women with a "bun" on her head so i saw more similarities with Mr. Wizard's hilt.

15th September 2010, 03:12 AM	#3
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	It does not matter whether the hilt is meant for sireh crusher, as long as it serves as a handle pretty well on a keris. Maybe the keris used to be owned by "wong ndeso", so the aesthetic might not be that important. I remember reading somewhere in Babad Demak and Babad Jaka Tingkir, the sireh crusher (known as "sadak" in Jawanese, and "gobek" in Malay) was used by Jaka Tingkir to kill a guy name Dadung Awuk who challenged him to a duel. It's said that "sadak" can overcome a person with invulnerability.

15th September 2010, 04:37 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Actually Penangsang, "sadak" in Javanese is the betel leaf when it has been rolled into a point with lime in it, ready for chewing. When the bride meets the groom at wedding ceremony, they both throw a sadak onto the floor. These pestles pictured are for crushing lime and are called "pelecok", from the word "lecok" which becomes "nglecok" : to crush, "dilecok" : crushed. When you think about it, yes, of course a sadak can overcome invulnerability, because friendship overcomes invulnerability and a sadak can be offered in friendship. Words do not always mean what they might appear to mean. In Indonesian, which as we know has its origin in Malay as it is spoken in South Sumatra, "gobek" refers to the entire mortar + pestle that is used to crush a complete betel chew to make it easier to consume. I do not know what the pestle alone is called in Indonesian.

15th September 2010, 06:05 AM	#7
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Ah... yes, you are right Alan, I stand corrected... sadak is the rolled betel leave, and (was said) used by Jaka Tingkir to kill Dadung Awuk. And I also understand that words do not always mean what they might appear to mean, as the duel with Dadung Awok mentioned could just be a metaphor of what jaka Tingkir had done to warrant a punishment (stripped of his position and outcast). And you are also right about gobek back to the topic, IMPO, keris of pusoko standard among wong ndeso does not really care about aesthetic, compatibility blade to wrongko or ukiran. As Mrwizard pointed out earlier, the hilt struck very close resemblance to tau-tau statue of Toraja, i think the blade and hilt originated in Sulawesi. Though Toraja people are not keris bearers, some of their pusakas are actually keris, made in South Sulawesi (ref: Kris Disk by Karsten Sejr Jensen)

16th September 2010, 12:58 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	When we consider the keris, or anything else for that matter, we tend to look at it in terms of what we know to be true at the present time. Where the dress for keris is concerned we are accustomed to seeing wrongkos and hilts that have been crafted by artisan craftsmen with usually very high levels of skill. But consider this:- in some societies in Maritime SE Asia, even up to recent times, the dress of the weapon was crafted by the owner. The hilts in particular were a homage to ancestors, or a personal hope for protection of deities or spirits, and the skill shown in carving these hilts was an advertisement for the personal qualities of the carver . This advertisement was noted by women as an indication of his suitability as a husband. Even now I have known people in Bali to carve their own keris hilt, and in Jawa for people to carve their own wrongko. This keris under discussion could well be a composite that has been put together for one reason or another, however , the hilt could well be an owner's personal effort to provide something usable. Once you move away from the influence of the kratons it seems to me that almost anything goes in respect of keris dress.