Keris Betok on Ebay

PenangsangII · 13th September 2010, 04:54 AM

Many thanks Alan.

There are many betok and jalak buda (even Sombro) keris currently in the market including on line. Some web sites even guarantee such kerises as genuinely of Kadiri, Jenggala or Singhasari tangguh.

Like David's term "Eprey", I am very cautious when buying on-line.

A. G. Maisey · 13th September 2010, 05:53 AM

Well, all this current fixation with tangguh is understandable. When its all said and done, its opinion, and anybody can have an opinion.

But there is a difference between an informed opinion and an uninformed opinion.

There is also a difference between truth and deliberate misrepresentation.

How we buy is always a balance of how much we know personally, and how much we can trust the people we buy from. Probably some things from unknown sellers on Ebay are OK, but I've never been brave enough to take the gamble. What happens if I make a mistake? Then I'm stuck with something I don't want and cannot sell ---if I sell it and it becomes associated with me I lose a lot more than just a few $$$.

I did buy a keris off Ebay once, but it was one I had sold some years before. I knew it.

Regular dealers who sell from a site should be trustworthy, but regrettably not all are. Maybe their honesty depends upon whether you're a recognised friend of the dealer, or just another dumb beginner who isn't yet out of kindergarten.

With tangguh, I feel that if somebody quotes a tangguh in a sales speil it would be quite legitimate for a prospective buyer to ask the seller exactly what the specific indicators are that have allowed him to form the opinion that the item is, for instance, Majapahit. As I said, there is opinion and informed opinion. An informed opinion should be able to be supported.

David · 13th September 2010, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Like David's term "Eprey", I am very cautious when buying on-line.

The term i used Penangsang, was ePray, and i would never claim that one as my own. Your term, ePrey, implies something completely different, yet just as true about eBay. I think i like your term better.

mykeris · 13th September 2010, 03:26 PM

Appreciate if Alan could just a little bit analyze the shortcomings of this blade as compared to the so called genuine budo. Thanks in advance.mykeris.Photo: exctracted from Ebay. Note: I had a similar blade purchased from ebay long time ago (quite pricely) and sold it to one Indonesian Keris Collector who claimed it to be a genuine blade. It was heavy with deteriorating blade like one shown in pic. Really confused me. p/s: Penangsang: TQ.

A. G. Maisey · 14th September 2010, 01:35 AM

Sorry, but I'm not going to do that.

Let's just say that I know exactly where this originated and exactly what it has experienced since.

I've given an opinion on this, and that's where it stops.

mykeris · 14th September 2010, 02:07 AM

TQ.

mykeris · 16th September 2010, 06:37 AM

[QUOTE=David]The term i used Penangsang, was ePray, and i would never claim that one as my own. Your term, ePrey, implies something completely different, yet just as true about eBay. I think i like your term better.

[/QUOTE

Good to stay neutral which I used to, I would advise not to offend other true on-line sellers.

David · 16th September 2010, 01:53 PM

[QUOTE=mykeris]

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

The term i used Penangsang, was ePray, and i would never claim that one as my own. Your term, ePrey, implies something completely different, yet just as true about eBay. I think i like your term better.

[/QUOTE

Good to stay neutral which I used to, I would advise not to offend other true on-line sellers.

Thanks for the advice MyKeris, but I think that any "true on-line seller" (which i assume you mean to say honest on-liner seller) is obviously not the type of seller i refer to in the use of this terminology. These honest sellers are well aware that they are surrounded by a peer group that very often actively attempts to deceive prospective bidders and buyers. And so they do indeed prey on bidders and the bidders do at time need to pray themselves. To act on the assumption that any seller is telling you the whole truth, even if they are, will no doubt lead to many disappointing purchases. So the buyer must always beware in on-line auctions like eBay.
The honest dealers know who they are and have nothing to fear. I have in no way insulted them. The dishonest dealers i have no care for and as the old saying goes, "If the shoe fits, wear it".

mykeris · 16th September 2010, 05:33 PM

Loud & clear, David. Rgrds, Mykeris

On the second thought, what is wrong with this keris David? Is it contradicting the standard buda form or fake material or .....somethig else? Some awesome faking samples would be good to see. Pls advise me, thanks in advance.

Rick · 16th September 2010, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mykeris

Loud & clear, David. Rgrds, Mykeris

On the second thought, what is wrong with this keris David? Is it contradicting the standard buda form or fake material or .....somethig else? Some awesome faking samples would be good to see. Pls advise me, thanks in advance.

The problem is that by discussing the whys and hows the Forger is educated right along with the Members .

Alam Shah · 17th September 2010, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The problem is that by discussing the whys and hows the Forger is educated right along with the Members .

Precisely, why some members are reluctant to impart knowledge or indicators regarding identifying forgeries in an open forum. This type of info is best kept in private discussions..

I was told that part of the reason why a keris betok, buda might be highly sought after, may be due to its supposedly having properties suitable to be used as a 'keris tindih', sort of a 'suppressant' keris to keep negative vibes from other kerises in check. Whether it is true or not, that's another story..

David · 16th September 2010, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mykeris

Loud & clear, David. Rgrds, Mykeris

On the second thought, what is wrong with this keris David? Is it contradicting the standard buda form or fake material or .....somethig else? Some awesome faking samples would be good to see. Pls advise me, thanks in advance.

I can only refer you back to my original answer to you in post #2.
I have made no claims in regards to the authenticity of this particular keris buda, nor am i about to, so i have nothing to advise you on.

A. G. Maisey · 17th September 2010, 12:43 AM

Precisely Rick.

I know of one family in East Jawa that has been producing intentional forgeries of fake keris buda and other archaic forms, for at least thirty years. I say "family" because it was originally one man, but I have heard that his son began working with the father a couple of years ago.

These forgeries are excellent, and I have been stung once.

Going back a few years keris buda were not particularly valuable and not particularly sought after, however, that is now very, very different. A good, genuine keris buda will bring a very heavy price indeed. We're not talking small money here, we are talking very serious money. But only for the real thing.

In some areas it is best to keep information to oneself.

13th September 2010, 03:26 PM	#4
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Appreciate if Alan could just a little bit analyze the shortcomings of this blade as compared to the so called genuine budo. Thanks in advance.mykeris.Photo: exctracted from Ebay. Note: I had a similar blade purchased from ebay long time ago (quite pricely) and sold it to one Indonesian Keris Collector who claimed it to be a genuine blade. It was heavy with deteriorating blade like one shown in pic. Really confused me. p/s: Penangsang: TQ. Attached Images Last edited by mykeris; 13th September 2010 at 06:02 PM.

16th September 2010, 05:33 PM	#9
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Loud & clear, David. Rgrds, Mykeris On the second thought, what is wrong with this keris David? Is it contradicting the standard buda form or fake material or .....somethig else? Some awesome faking samples would be good to see. Pls advise me, thanks in advance. Last edited by mykeris; 16th September 2010 at 06:00 PM.

13th September 2010, 04:54 AM	#1
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Many thanks Alan. There are many betok and jalak buda (even Sombro) keris currently in the market including on line. Some web sites even guarantee such kerises as genuinely of Kadiri, Jenggala or Singhasari tangguh. Like David's term "Eprey", I am very cautious when buying on-line.

13th September 2010, 05:53 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,120	Well, all this current fixation with tangguh is understandable. When its all said and done, its opinion, and anybody can have an opinion. But there is a difference between an informed opinion and an uninformed opinion. There is also a difference between truth and deliberate misrepresentation. How we buy is always a balance of how much we know personally, and how much we can trust the people we buy from. Probably some things from unknown sellers on Ebay are OK, but I've never been brave enough to take the gamble. What happens if I make a mistake? Then I'm stuck with something I don't want and cannot sell ---if I sell it and it becomes associated with me I lose a lot more than just a few $$$. I did buy a keris off Ebay once, but it was one I had sold some years before. I knew it. Regular dealers who sell from a site should be trustworthy, but regrettably not all are. Maybe their honesty depends upon whether you're a recognised friend of the dealer, or just another dumb beginner who isn't yet out of kindergarten. With tangguh, I feel that if somebody quotes a tangguh in a sales speil it would be quite legitimate for a prospective buyer to ask the seller exactly what the specific indicators are that have allowed him to form the opinion that the item is, for instance, Majapahit. As I said, there is opinion and informed opinion. An informed opinion should be able to be supported.

14th September 2010, 01:35 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,120	Sorry, but I'm not going to do that. Let's just say that I know exactly where this originated and exactly what it has experienced since. I've given an opinion on this, and that's where it stops.

14th September 2010, 02:07 AM	#6
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	TQ.

16th September 2010, 06:37 AM	#7
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	[QUOTE=David]The term i used Penangsang, was ePray, and i would never claim that one as my own. Your term, ePrey, implies something completely different, yet just as true about eBay. I think i like your term better. [/QUOTE Good to stay neutral which I used to, I would advise not to offend other true on-line sellers.

17th September 2010, 12:43 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,120	Precisely Rick. I know of one family in East Jawa that has been producing intentional forgeries of fake keris buda and other archaic forms, for at least thirty years. I say "family" because it was originally one man, but I have heard that his son began working with the father a couple of years ago. These forgeries are excellent, and I have been stung once. Going back a few years keris buda were not particularly valuable and not particularly sought after, however, that is now very, very different. A good, genuine keris buda will bring a very heavy price indeed. We're not talking small money here, we are talking very serious money. But only for the real thing. In some areas it is best to keep information to oneself.