Pre-contact Maori whalebone club

fearn · 11th September 2010, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Anderson

I also wonder if the concentric circles in my club once held moth of pearl inlays that are now gone.

I've googled pictures of early clubs with magnificent mother of pearl inlays up the frame of the club exactly where the concentric of my club line up. (Two examples on exhibit in Edinburgh spring to mind) These inlays were square, but that again is easy to understand in terms of the natural differences in personal artistic styles etc. Is it therefore also possible that there were mother of pearl inlays in the eyes at some point?

Just a thought.

Perhaps close ups will help provide some answers.

One thing I don't recall seeing is a perfectly round eye, centered in a circle.

The PNW artisans prefer a rounded lozenge. I don't have the book with me that covers the details, but each pupil shape was supposed to define a particular species. One didn't mix a wolf eye with an eagle nose, for instance. I suspect the tradition arose because they used chisels to make the holes, but regardless, it now is part of the style.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but it's really difficult to make perfect circles by hand, and to me, these look like they were made with a compass and/or a drill bit. Neither technology is Pre-Contact for either the Pacific Northwest or Polynesia. The fact that you've got three such circles that appear to be the same diameter really makes me think that European technology was involved.

Best,

F

David · 11th September 2010, 04:15 PM

Fearn makes an excellent point. If you examine this closely all the circles appear extremely regular and perfect. It is hard to imagine that these were each done by hand in a pre-contact environment wit stone or ivory tools. To my eye this is obviously an authentic piece, but made after European contact. I would place it amongst the NW clubs though. It shows more similarities than differences to me.

Robert · 11th September 2010, 05:18 PM

Hello, Though I know absolutely nothing about these clubs I do know that making true circles is a very easy task (something I learned in the Boy Scout years ago) by simply attaching a piece of flint to the side of a round pointed stick, making a small indent to place the point in and and rotating it by rubbing it between your hands just like you're trying to star a fire. The size of the circle just depends on the diameter of the stick you use. If you are real industrious, you can use a bow to turn the stick.

Robert

PS
I forgot to mention, you carve a flat spot on the side of the pointed stick where you are going to mount the piece of flint or what ever sharp item you are going to use.

Tim Simmons · 11th September 2010, 06:35 PM

Mask same as the handle.

fearn · 11th September 2010, 06:38 PM

Just for clarification, Robert, are you talking about drilling a hole or drilling a concentric circle?

I agree that drilling a circular hole is easy. Drilling a concentric circle is trickier, because you've got to have a tough, yet hollow bit, and then (most importantly for this piece) you've got to do it three times in a row the same way, and then center a hole in each circle. As I said, this is all tricky. It's even more tricky if it's not part of one's normal artistic repertoire.

What makes me suspicious is that there are three of those concentric circles. If all three are the same size, that's really suspicious, because exactly duplicating the size of such features is a real chore if you're doing it freehand, and there's no particular reason to do it in this design. Conversely, if you have a drill bit with a groove on the outside or anything similar, that's the design you'll get.

F

Robert · 11th September 2010, 10:35 PM

Hello Fearn, I'm talking about making a concentric circle not drilling a hole. The center hole comes first, then the circle. One way it is done is the way described above and another way is the use of a spool on a shaft with a sharp cutting bit inserted in the spool. Both ways use a center shaft with a point and can be rotated by hand or the use of a bow. Here is a link that might interest you http://www.jstor.org/pss/282168 I just wish that there were pictures to show what I am having a problem describing.

Robert

VANDOO · 11th September 2010, 11:34 PM

I SUPPOSE THIS DRILL WOULD WORK LIKE A COMPASS WITH A CENTER SPIKE TO MAINTAIN THE CENTER AND THE OTHER POINT (A PENCIL) OR A FLINT BLADE WHICH WILL ROTATE AT THE SAME DISTANCE AROUND THE CENTER POINT. A HOLE SAW WORKS ON THE SAME PRINCIPLE WITH THE CENTER DRILL BUT HAS A ROUND BLADE. JUDGEING FROM THE SKILL OF THEIR CARVINGS IT WOULD NOT SUPRIZE ME IF THEY HAD THESE TOOLS CRUDE THOUGH THEY MAY BE. MANY TRIBES SEEM TO HAVE HAD LITTLE PROBLEM MAKEING PERFECT CIRCLES IN CARVING, SAND ART, POTTERY AND ELSEWHERE AS THE MOON AND SUN WERE OFTEN WELL DRAWN CIRCLES.
PERHAPS A SIMPLE CORD WITH A CENTER PIN WAS USED TO MARK THEM OUT. THE NATIVE AMERICANS BOTH NORTH AND SOUTH WERE CERTIANLY ADVANCED ENOUGH TO HAVE FOUND THESE CONCEPTS ON THEIR OWN.
I WOULD NOT BE SURPRIZED TO FIND OTHER ANIMALS CARVED ON THESE CLUBS AS DIFFERENT TRIBES AND GROUPS HAD DIFFERENT TOTUMS. BEAR CLAN, EAGLE CLAN, KILLER WHALE CLAN, ECT. IF MOST OF THE LINE DRAWN CLUBS WERE COLLECTED BY CAPTIAN COOK FROM THE SAME CLAN THAT COULD ACCOUNT FOR THE PREVALANCE OF THE EAGLE FORMS. NOTABLE WARRIORS OFTEN HAD A HELMET IN THE FORM OF THEIR TOTUM THIS IS FOUND IN SOUTH AMERICA AS WELL THE JAGUAR AND EAGLE BEING WELL REPRESENTED.
I AM OFTEN SUPRIZED TO LEARN SOMETHING NEW OR AT LEAST DISCOVER NEW POSSIBILITYS. TODAY AT THE ARTEFACT SHOW I SAW AN OLD ARTEFACT RECENTLY FOUND HERE IN OKLAHOMA THAT RESEMBLES A SNOW KNIFE. WHICH BRINGS UP THE POSSIBILITY THAT NATIVES THIS FAR SOUTH MAY HAVE BUILT IGLOOS DURING THE ICE AGE. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS NEVER CROSSED MY MIND BUT IS IN THE REALM OF POSSIBILITY. OF COURSE IT MAY HAVE SERVED AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PURPOSE AND MAY NOT BE 10 THOUSAND YEARS OLD??

Ron Anderson · 11th September 2010, 11:44 PM

everyone, this is a fantastic discussion and i do appreciate your contribution. I will post photos of the NW American (Innuit?) bow and drill I purchased at the auction. This is a simple set but there were larger and more capable ones, beautiful marine ivory pieces with fine carvings. I suspect such tools would be capable of completing that task as well as any metal tool. I don't believe these tools were European inspired. i think the design is essentially local and probably very old. anyone feel free to correct me if you know better.

I'll post the pictures soon.

Ron Anderson · 12th September 2010, 09:42 AM

I am increasingly of the opinion that it is incorrect to assume that concentric circles are outside the capability of pre-contact indians on the West Coast. Or that the craft evident in creating this club must come with the help of European tools.

This flies in the face of everything I know about ancient artefacts. And it flies in the face of the facts I've been able to glean on the tools used by NW American people.

In fact, today I was lucky enough to come across a great reference book – Indian & Eskimo Artifacts of North America. I will scan some of the tools highlighted in it when I can. These include prehistoric "drill flywheels" located in central California.

There are an endless array of Indian and Eskimo pre-contact tools pictured that boggle the mind with their innovation and sophistication, including bow drills, which would have been an incredibly effective and accurate instrument in the hands of any skilled artisan. Certainly, I do not see simple concentric circles as much of a challenge.

More than that, as a collector of middle eastern antiquities, I keep thinking of the incredibly artwork I've encountered in pre-industrial societies, including the Sumerians of circa 2500 BC. Particularly, the unbelievable artwork of cylinder seals, where the images were drilled into the much more difficult medium of rock and stone. These images were initially composed of –what else – circles, and then became more intricate and detailed during the second millennium BC. The drills they used weren't much different from the tools available to native Americans. Largely stone tools

These guys didn't have a Black & Decker.

In fact, I'd suggest we couldn't achieve the same result with our modern tools.

Please remember that whale bone is a much more benign material to work with than steatite, marble or lapis lazuli!

The more you investigate the notion, the more absurd it seems that we can't credit "pre-contact" cultures with that level of artistry. On top of this, we have the evidence of those line drawings, which show concentric circles all the way up the body of some of the clubs. Those line drawings almost certainly hail from early contacts with the culture concerned. I would not be surprised if they from the Captain Cook era, or shortly afterwards. At the very least, they were created before the invention of the camera, by someone who paid close attention to detail.

That said, I think the discussion has been valuable, so thanks everyone for your opinions.

Additional photos of the item will follow this post. I hope they are better, but I'm not much of a photographer.

I will publish scans and photos of tools as soon as I can.

Regards
Ron

11th September 2010, 05:18 PM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello, Though I know absolutely nothing about these clubs I do know that making true circles is a very easy task (something I learned in the Boy Scout years ago) by simply attaching a piece of flint to the side of a round pointed stick, making a small indent to place the point in and and rotating it by rubbing it between your hands just like you're trying to star a fire. The size of the circle just depends on the diameter of the stick you use. If you are real industrious, you can use a bow to turn the stick. Robert PS I forgot to mention, you carve a flat spot on the side of the pointed stick where you are going to mount the piece of flint or what ever sharp item you are going to use. Last edited by Robert Coleman; 11th September 2010 at 05:38 PM.

11th September 2010, 06:35 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	Mask same as the handle. Attached Images

11th September 2010, 10:35 PM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Fearn, I'm talking about making a concentric circle not drilling a hole. The center hole comes first, then the circle. One way it is done is the way described above and another way is the use of a spool on a shaft with a sharp cutting bit inserted in the spool. Both ways use a center shaft with a point and can be rotated by hand or the use of a bow. Here is a link that might interest you http://www.jstor.org/pss/282168 I just wish that there were pictures to show what I am having a problem describing. Robert Last edited by Robert Coleman; 11th September 2010 at 10:57 PM.

11th September 2010, 04:15 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Fearn makes an excellent point. If you examine this closely all the circles appear extremely regular and perfect. It is hard to imagine that these were each done by hand in a pre-contact environment wit stone or ivory tools. To my eye this is obviously an authentic piece, but made after European contact. I would place it amongst the NW clubs though. It shows more similarities than differences to me.

11th September 2010, 06:38 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Just for clarification, Robert, are you talking about drilling a hole or drilling a concentric circle? I agree that drilling a circular hole is easy. Drilling a concentric circle is trickier, because you've got to have a tough, yet hollow bit, and then (most importantly for this piece) you've got to do it three times in a row the same way, and then center a hole in each circle. As I said, this is all tricky. It's even more tricky if it's not part of one's normal artistic repertoire. What makes me suspicious is that there are three of those concentric circles. If all three are the same size, that's really suspicious, because exactly duplicating the size of such features is a real chore if you're doing it freehand, and there's no particular reason to do it in this design. Conversely, if you have a drill bit with a groove on the outside or anything similar, that's the design you'll get. F

11th September 2010, 11:34 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I SUPPOSE THIS DRILL WOULD WORK LIKE A COMPASS WITH A CENTER SPIKE TO MAINTAIN THE CENTER AND THE OTHER POINT (A PENCIL) OR A FLINT BLADE WHICH WILL ROTATE AT THE SAME DISTANCE AROUND THE CENTER POINT. A HOLE SAW WORKS ON THE SAME PRINCIPLE WITH THE CENTER DRILL BUT HAS A ROUND BLADE. JUDGEING FROM THE SKILL OF THEIR CARVINGS IT WOULD NOT SUPRIZE ME IF THEY HAD THESE TOOLS CRUDE THOUGH THEY MAY BE. MANY TRIBES SEEM TO HAVE HAD LITTLE PROBLEM MAKEING PERFECT CIRCLES IN CARVING, SAND ART, POTTERY AND ELSEWHERE AS THE MOON AND SUN WERE OFTEN WELL DRAWN CIRCLES. PERHAPS A SIMPLE CORD WITH A CENTER PIN WAS USED TO MARK THEM OUT. THE NATIVE AMERICANS BOTH NORTH AND SOUTH WERE CERTIANLY ADVANCED ENOUGH TO HAVE FOUND THESE CONCEPTS ON THEIR OWN. I WOULD NOT BE SURPRIZED TO FIND OTHER ANIMALS CARVED ON THESE CLUBS AS DIFFERENT TRIBES AND GROUPS HAD DIFFERENT TOTUMS. BEAR CLAN, EAGLE CLAN, KILLER WHALE CLAN, ECT. IF MOST OF THE LINE DRAWN CLUBS WERE COLLECTED BY CAPTIAN COOK FROM THE SAME CLAN THAT COULD ACCOUNT FOR THE PREVALANCE OF THE EAGLE FORMS. NOTABLE WARRIORS OFTEN HAD A HELMET IN THE FORM OF THEIR TOTUM THIS IS FOUND IN SOUTH AMERICA AS WELL THE JAGUAR AND EAGLE BEING WELL REPRESENTED. I AM OFTEN SUPRIZED TO LEARN SOMETHING NEW OR AT LEAST DISCOVER NEW POSSIBILITYS. TODAY AT THE ARTEFACT SHOW I SAW AN OLD ARTEFACT RECENTLY FOUND HERE IN OKLAHOMA THAT RESEMBLES A SNOW KNIFE. WHICH BRINGS UP THE POSSIBILITY THAT NATIVES THIS FAR SOUTH MAY HAVE BUILT IGLOOS DURING THE ICE AGE. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS NEVER CROSSED MY MIND BUT IS IN THE REALM OF POSSIBILITY. OF COURSE IT MAY HAVE SERVED AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PURPOSE AND MAY NOT BE 10 THOUSAND YEARS OLD??

11th September 2010, 11:44 PM	#8
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	everyone, this is a fantastic discussion and i do appreciate your contribution. I will post photos of the NW American (Innuit?) bow and drill I purchased at the auction. This is a simple set but there were larger and more capable ones, beautiful marine ivory pieces with fine carvings. I suspect such tools would be capable of completing that task as well as any metal tool. I don't believe these tools were European inspired. i think the design is essentially local and probably very old. anyone feel free to correct me if you know better. I'll post the pictures soon.

12th September 2010, 09:42 AM	#9
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	I am increasingly of the opinion that it is incorrect to assume that concentric circles are outside the capability of pre-contact indians on the West Coast. Or that the craft evident in creating this club must come with the help of European tools. This flies in the face of everything I know about ancient artefacts. And it flies in the face of the facts I've been able to glean on the tools used by NW American people. In fact, today I was lucky enough to come across a great reference book – Indian & Eskimo Artifacts of North America. I will scan some of the tools highlighted in it when I can. These include *prehistoric* "drill flywheels" located in central California. There are an endless array of Indian and Eskimo pre-contact tools pictured that boggle the mind with their innovation and sophistication, including bow drills, which would have been an incredibly effective and accurate instrument in the hands of any skilled artisan. Certainly, I do not see simple concentric circles as much of a challenge. More than that, as a collector of middle eastern antiquities, I keep thinking of the incredibly artwork I've encountered in pre-industrial societies, including the Sumerians of circa 2500 BC. Particularly, the unbelievable artwork of cylinder seals, where the images were drilled into the much more difficult medium of rock and stone. These images were initially composed of –what else – circles, and then became more intricate and detailed during the second millennium BC. The drills they used weren't much different from the tools available to native Americans. Largely stone tools These guys didn't have a Black & Decker. In fact, I'd suggest we couldn't achieve the same result with our modern tools. Please remember that whale bone is a much more benign material to work with than steatite, marble or lapis lazuli! The more you investigate the notion, the more absurd it seems that we can't credit "pre-contact" cultures with that level of artistry. On top of this, we have the evidence of those line drawings, which show concentric circles all the way up the body of some of the clubs. Those line drawings almost certainly hail from early contacts with the culture concerned. I would not be surprised if they from the Captain Cook era, or shortly afterwards. At the very least, they were created before the invention of the camera, by someone who paid close attention to detail. That said, I think the discussion has been valuable, so thanks everyone for your opinions. Additional photos of the item will follow this post. I hope they are better, but I'm not much of a photographer. I will publish scans and photos of tools as soon as I can. Regards Ron