Hirshfanger bayonet

celtan · 10th September 2010, 04:32 PM

I own a Danish hirschfanger, but it isn't a bayonet, more like a cutlass/machete. Then, I also own a Swedish Sword-bayo, with a beautifully characteristic swedish blade.

Click on the thumbs:

Swedish Sword Bajo

Danish M1777-1801 Note the curved blade!

Bryan.H · 10th September 2010, 05:24 PM

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ron Anderson · 11th September 2010, 01:43 AM

Sorry Bryan

You seem to be offended. That wasn't my intention.

I was just seeking to clarify what this item was and you had clearly misidentified it.

Keep well.

Ron Anderson · 11th September 2010, 01:54 AM

Those are great swords, Celtan.

Both of them. But I particularly like the Swedish sword bayonet.

The guard suggests they're not the sort of swords I associate with Hirschfangers. I wouldn't usually associate a stirrup hilt with a hunting sword. More like the type of symmetrical guard you see in the Danish bayonet I posted. Mine has that but has evolved a little to appear more like a standard bayonet.

However, that Swedish sword may be related in some way. I've not seen that before. Of those, there is also an English 'cutlass bayonet', but I think it's a later model. Not as early, and certainly as attractive, as that Swedish sword.

It's possible these Hirschfanger bayonets hail more from the scandinavian countries than from Germany. I will confess I haven't ever actually seen one positively identified as German. But I have seen Danish models. And now this Swedish cutlass-bayonet.

celtan · 11th September 2010, 04:53 PM

Hi Ron,

Hirschfanger actually means something like deer's canine (Tooth-fang?). Several of the forester hunting daggers from Nazi Germany are also classified as such. They are not too rare...

I'm not very into either sword bayonets or hirschfangers, although as you can see a few have attracted my attention. I own several spanish, american et al sword-bayonets, but the swedish c1815 one I posted has a really neat blade.

Best regards

Manuel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Anderson

Those are great swords, Celtan.

Both of them. But I particularly like the Swedish sword bayonet.

The guard suggests they're not the sort of swords I associate with Hirschfangers. I wouldn't usually associate a stirrup hilt with a hunting sword. More like the type of symmetrical guard you see in the Danish bayonet I posted. Mine has that but has evolved a little to appear more like a standard bayonet.

However, that Swedish sword may be related in some way. I've not seen that before. Of those, there is also an English 'cutlass bayonet', but I think it's a later model. Not as early, and certainly as attractive, as that Swedish sword.

It's possible these Hirschfanger bayonets hail more from the scandinavian countries than from Germany. I will confess I haven't ever actually seen one positively identified as German. But I have seen Danish models. And now this Swedish cutlass-bayonet.

Ron Anderson · 11th September 2010, 11:32 PM

hi Celtan

German hirschfangers are common as muck.

hirschfanger-bayonets are something different. clearly very rare. not even the learned members here seem to know anything about them.

Jim McDougall · 12th September 2010, 08:34 AM

Ron, I cannot speak for the 'learned members' here, but one thing I have discovered over many years here is that simply because there are no responses in a timely fashion to a thread emphatically does not mean the members have no knowledge of an item. I know that I certainly do not pretend to know about everything, but I typically spend time researching and learning about the topic at hand, and actually enjoy learning in this way.

Without going into the history of the bayonet itself, basically the first bayonets, the plug bayonets, in military sense, had a relatively short life span, giving way to the socket bayonet. The plug bayonet however, remained a favorite for hunters well into the 19th century, and even beyond in some countries (see R.D.C. Evans, "The Plug Bayonet").

Howard Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons", 1971, p.67) notes that "...the military, more interested than the sporting fraternity in the ability of a gun to shoot with its bayonet fixed were quickly to abandon the plug bayonet in favor of the socket bayonet and then the clip on sword bayonet".

While the site you linked shows the M1848 Danish hirshfanger, it is clearly not the same design but the bar slot seems remarkably the same. I seems that these bar slot fixtures or similar notched slides are actually fairly well established on sword bayonets, such as the Baker types in England c.1820 and as you note, the Danish model. Most sword bayonets of these times were cast brass and cheaply produced as many 'other ranks' sidearms for various specialized units and line infantry, artillery etc.

In "Collectors Pictorial Book of Bayonets", Frederick Stephens, 1971, #36) is shown a Prussian hirschfanger c.1790, which is remarkably like yours, but without as much of a vestigial crossguard, It has the same simple hilt and domed type pommel. I would speculate that yours is quite likely a Prussian or German state model later in the 19th century to a Jager regiment soldier.

The Jagers, as you probably already know, were military units who were recruited from huntsman and foresters in European regions, and were enlisted as reconaissance, skirmishers, snipers and often foragers. As they often furnished thier own weapons, they often carried hirshfangers (actually means deer catcher from a reference I saw), as secondary weapons.

There are many examples of hirshfangers which are combination weapons and are mounted with firearm locks and barrel which are seen from 17th and into 18th century. This tradition seems to have been present as early as 16th century even with wheelock mechanisms.

It would seem that the hirshfanger here is military, as noted, and again, probably German, about mid to third quarter 19th c.

I would be inclined to agree that this particular type of sword bayonet is indeed somewhat rare, most of the sword bayonets such as Bakers and some others are as well, and bayonet collecting is a deeply specialized field. Just how rare this might actually be is hard to say, as I note again, this is far outside my field of study. It is an intriguing piece and as always, illustrates that even the simplest appearing weapons can often have fascinating histories with the,

All best regards,
Jim

10th September 2010, 04:32 PM	#1
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	I own a Danish hirschfanger, but it isn't a bayonet, more like a cutlass/machete. Then, I also own a Swedish Sword-bayo, with a beautifully characteristic swedish blade. Click on the thumbs: Swedish Sword Bajo Danish M1777-1801 Note the curved blade! Last edited by celtan; 10th September 2010 at 05:51 PM.

10th September 2010, 05:24 PM	#2
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Last edited by Bryan.H; 11th September 2010 at 11:34 AM.

11th September 2010, 01:43 AM	#3
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Sorry Bryan You seem to be offended. That wasn't my intention. I was just seeking to clarify what this item was and you had clearly misidentified it. Keep well.

11th September 2010, 01:54 AM	#4
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Those are great swords, Celtan. Both of them. But I particularly like the Swedish sword bayonet. The guard suggests they're not the sort of swords I associate with Hirschfangers. I wouldn't usually associate a stirrup hilt with a hunting sword. More like the type of symmetrical guard you see in the Danish bayonet I posted. Mine has that but has evolved a little to appear more like a standard bayonet. However, that Swedish sword may be related in some way. I've not seen that before. Of those, there is also an English 'cutlass bayonet', but I think it's a later model. Not as early, and certainly as attractive, as that Swedish sword. It's possible these Hirschfanger bayonets hail more from the scandinavian countries than from Germany. I will confess I haven't ever actually seen one positively identified as German. But I have seen Danish models. And now this Swedish cutlass-bayonet.

11th September 2010, 11:32 PM	#6
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	hi Celtan German hirschfangers are common as muck. hirschfanger-bayonets are something different. clearly very rare. not even the learned members here seem to know anything about them.

12th September 2010, 08:34 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Ron, I cannot speak for the 'learned members' here, but one thing I have discovered over many years here is that simply because there are no responses in a timely fashion to a thread emphatically does not mean the members have no knowledge of an item. I know that I certainly do not pretend to know about everything, but I typically spend time researching and learning about the topic at hand, and actually enjoy learning in this way. Without going into the history of the bayonet itself, basically the first bayonets, the plug bayonets, in military sense, had a relatively short life span, giving way to the socket bayonet. The plug bayonet however, remained a favorite for hunters well into the 19th century, and even beyond in some countries (see R.D.C. Evans, "The Plug Bayonet"). Howard Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons", 1971, p.67) notes that "...the military, more interested than the sporting fraternity in the ability of a gun to shoot with its bayonet fixed were quickly to abandon the plug bayonet in favor of the socket bayonet and then the clip on sword bayonet". While the site you linked shows the M1848 Danish hirshfanger, it is clearly not the same design but the bar slot seems remarkably the same. I seems that these bar slot fixtures or similar notched slides are actually fairly well established on sword bayonets, such as the Baker types in England c.1820 and as you note, the Danish model. Most sword bayonets of these times were cast brass and cheaply produced as many 'other ranks' sidearms for various specialized units and line infantry, artillery etc. In "Collectors Pictorial Book of Bayonets", Frederick Stephens, 1971, #36) is shown a Prussian hirschfanger c.1790, which is remarkably like yours, but without as much of a vestigial crossguard, It has the same simple hilt and domed type pommel. I would speculate that yours is quite likely a Prussian or German state model later in the 19th century to a Jager regiment soldier. The Jagers, as you probably already know, were military units who were recruited from huntsman and foresters in European regions, and were enlisted as reconaissance, skirmishers, snipers and often foragers. As they often furnished thier own weapons, they often carried hirshfangers (actually means deer catcher from a reference I saw), as secondary weapons. There are many examples of hirshfangers which are combination weapons and are mounted with firearm locks and barrel which are seen from 17th and into 18th century. This tradition seems to have been present as early as 16th century even with wheelock mechanisms. It would seem that the hirshfanger here is military, as noted, and again, probably German, about mid to third quarter 19th c. I would be inclined to agree that this particular type of sword bayonet is indeed somewhat rare, most of the sword bayonets such as Bakers and some others are as well, and bayonet collecting is a deeply specialized field. Just how rare this might actually be is hard to say, as I note again, this is far outside my field of study. It is an intriguing piece and as always, illustrates that even the simplest appearing weapons can often have fascinating histories with the, All best regards, Jim