Pre-contact Maori whalebone club

Gavin Nugent · 9th September 2010, 02:51 PM

Hi Ron,

I too would be interested in hearing more about this from learned members.
Personally, I do not think this is pre-contact Maori though, my opinion only based on the manner of carving and only seeing an image, I would look to other Islands. Carving aside, the whale bone however does seem to have a lot of age to it and whale bone doesn't come cheap in any form.

PM me if you like as I know a bit more about a number of the items from GES.

Gav

Tim Simmons · 9th September 2010, 05:20 PM

That is very nice indeed. The head is beautifully carved, look at the fine work around the nose. Ron in my opinion this is not Maori or pre contact, as the circle design elements are made with a pair of steel dividers. I think what you have may well be a genuine North American NW Coast piece. You are a very lucky man!!!!!

VANDOO · 9th September 2010, 06:11 PM

I AGREE THAT THIS CLUB MORE CLOSELY RESEMBLES THE WHALEBONE CLUBS FOUND IN THE NORTH WEST COAST OF NORTH AMERICA. THEY ARE GENERALLY A LITTLE LONGER THAN THE MAORI SHORT CLUBS AND YOU SEE VERY FEW OF THEM COMPARED TO THE MAORI CLUBS. WHAT ARE ITS MEASUREMENTS?. SEE THE THREE POSTS ON MAORI SHORT CLUBS FOR PICTURES AND INFO ON MAORI CLUBS. IF THE PROVENANCE IS ACCURATE IT IS POSSIBLE TO BE MAORI BUT FROM LOOKING AT IT AND ITS APPARENT LENGTH I WOULD GO WITH N.W. COAST.
I INCLUDE THREE PICTURES OF TWO WHALEBONE WAR CLUBS N.W. COAST AND A PICTURE OF SEVERAL SNOW KNIVES USED FOR CONSTRUCTION WAY UP NORTH.
EITHER WAY YOU HAVE A VERY RARE AND DESIRABLE CLUB, I HAVE NEVER HAD THE PLEASURE OF HANDELING SUCH A CLUB SO CONGRADULATIONS ON ACTUALLY OWNING ONE, I AM ENVIOUS.

fearn · 9th September 2010, 06:30 PM

I'm also skeptical about a pre-contact age on that club. However, I think it came from the south Pacific, not the Pacific Northwest.

Here's my reasoning:

1. Pre-Contact vs. Post-Contact: The carving looks like it was done with metal tools. Granted, I haven't done any carving on whale bone (for the obvious reason of not having any), but Pre-Contact lines would have been ground and chipped in with stone tools. This tends to make for round bottoms and smooth edges. If you can imagine free-handing those circular incisions using (perhaps) a stick and some sand, or an awl made from something, then you'll see what the issue is. With a metal drill, it's a trivial figure to make. Ditto with the edges around the mouth. Now, if you can see work marks that makes you think someone laboriously incised all that stuff, then Pre-Contact looks more likely.

2. South Pacific vs. North Pacific: to me, it looks like Polynesian work. My thought is that in the early days, a number of Polynesians, including Maori, served on the whaling boats. I could see such a sailor making this club on-board or afterward, using some bone from one of their catches.

That's my 0.0002 pence,

F

Tim Simmons · 9th September 2010, 07:01 PM

Hmmm, back on the made by saliors. From your pictures I cannot see much smoothness from handling. That does not have to mean much. I can see the carving of the face fitting many NW pacific masks. I could see melanesian style carving but the form of the whole thing and the overall shape of the handle part do seem so very similar to many NW Pacific pieces. I think you sould send pics to museums in London and Washington DC.

P.S. I have to say that the quality of the carving suggests a specialist or an artist, at the very least somebody accomplished and used to balancing design.

Spunjer · 9th September 2010, 07:20 PM

It reminds me of Ku or Kukailimoku, Hawaiian war god...

Tim Simmons · 9th September 2010, 07:46 PM

Ku has a fierce mouth?

This really is something to get stuck into. These pictures which are very helpful in showing Hawaiian sculpture outside of the really flashy museum pieces in so many standard publications. The pictures are from "Old Hawai'i. an ethnography of Hawai'i in the 1880s - ethnologisches museum Staatliche Museen zu Berlin 2007" Cleary the whale bone club is not Hawaiian work. Do not see it as other polynesian work either. An exception is Fiji which is equally melanesia. I could add more pictures of decorative sculpture all strongly hawaiian and far away from the work on the club.

The figure standing on the ring like object is an armband.

9th September 2010, 02:51 PM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Interesting Hi Ron, I too would be interested in hearing more about this from learned members. Personally, I do not think this is pre-contact Maori though, my opinion only based on the manner of carving and only seeing an image, I would look to other Islands. Carving aside, the whale bone however does seem to have a lot of age to it and whale bone doesn't come cheap in any form. PM me if you like as I know a bit more about a number of the items from GES. Gav

9th September 2010, 06:11 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AGREE THAT THIS CLUB MORE CLOSELY RESEMBLES THE WHALEBONE CLUBS FOUND IN THE NORTH WEST COAST OF NORTH AMERICA. THEY ARE GENERALLY A LITTLE LONGER THAN THE MAORI SHORT CLUBS AND YOU SEE VERY FEW OF THEM COMPARED TO THE MAORI CLUBS. WHAT ARE ITS MEASUREMENTS?. SEE THE THREE POSTS ON MAORI SHORT CLUBS FOR PICTURES AND INFO ON MAORI CLUBS. IF THE PROVENANCE IS ACCURATE IT IS POSSIBLE TO BE MAORI BUT FROM LOOKING AT IT AND ITS APPARENT LENGTH I WOULD GO WITH N.W. COAST. I INCLUDE THREE PICTURES OF TWO WHALEBONE WAR CLUBS N.W. COAST AND A PICTURE OF SEVERAL SNOW KNIVES USED FOR CONSTRUCTION WAY UP NORTH. EITHER WAY YOU HAVE A VERY RARE AND DESIRABLE CLUB, I HAVE NEVER HAD THE PLEASURE OF HANDELING SUCH A CLUB SO CONGRADULATIONS ON ACTUALLY OWNING ONE, I AM ENVIOUS. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 10th September 2010 at 04:52 AM.

9th September 2010, 07:46 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	Ku has a fierce mouth? This really is something to get stuck into. These pictures which are very helpful in showing Hawaiian sculpture outside of the really flashy museum pieces in so many standard publications. The pictures are from "Old Hawai'i. an ethnography of Hawai'i in the 1880s - ethnologisches museum Staatliche Museen zu Berlin 2007" Cleary the whale bone club is not Hawaiian work. Do not see it as other polynesian work either. An exception is Fiji which is equally melanesia. I could add more pictures of decorative sculpture all strongly hawaiian and far away from the work on the club. The figure standing on the ring like object is an armband. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 9th September 2010 at 08:39 PM.

9th September 2010, 05:20 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	That is very nice indeed. The head is beautifully carved, look at the fine work around the nose. Ron in my opinion this is not Maori or pre contact, as the circle design elements are made with a pair of steel dividers. I think what you have may well be a genuine North American NW Coast piece. You are a very lucky man!!!!!

9th September 2010, 06:30 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I'm also skeptical about a pre-contact age on that club. However, I think it came from the south Pacific, not the Pacific Northwest. Here's my reasoning: 1. Pre-Contact vs. Post-Contact: The carving looks like it was done with metal tools. Granted, I haven't done any carving on whale bone (for the obvious reason of not having any), but Pre-Contact lines would have been ground and chipped in with stone tools. This tends to make for round bottoms and smooth edges. If you can imagine free-handing those circular incisions using (perhaps) a stick and some sand, or an awl made from something, then you'll see what the issue is. With a metal drill, it's a trivial figure to make. Ditto with the edges around the mouth. Now, if you can see work marks that makes you think someone laboriously incised all that stuff, then Pre-Contact looks more likely. 2. South Pacific vs. North Pacific: to me, it looks like Polynesian work. My thought is that in the early days, a number of Polynesians, including Maori, served on the whaling boats. I could see such a sailor making this club on-board or afterward, using some bone from one of their catches. That's my 0.0002 pence, F

9th September 2010, 07:01 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	Hmmm, back on the made by saliors. From your pictures I cannot see much smoothness from handling. That does not have to mean much. I can see the carving of the face fitting many NW pacific masks. I could see melanesian style carving but the form of the whole thing and the overall shape of the handle part do seem so very similar to many NW Pacific pieces. I think you sould send pics to museums in London and Washington DC. P.S. I have to say that the quality of the carving suggests a specialist or an artist, at the very least somebody accomplished and used to balancing design.

9th September 2010, 07:20 PM	#6
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	It reminds me of Ku or Kukailimoku, Hawaiian war god...