Help with Identification please

PenangsangII · 7th September 2010, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Thank you Alan, for giving us a view in the spirit world of keris. The way you explained it, makes it for me, and i hope other forum members, very understandable. Talking about this subject should be face tot face indeed and is very personal. But we all know about the existing of this subject and the spirit world of keris.

Forgive my ingnorance and i have no intention to offend anybody, but, as Penangsang stated,
imagine that someone you love, or care, suddenly you put him to fire or flame.... he is OK, he wont die because of the small fire, but if were him, I would decide to go..... some may even attempt to exact revenge in any possible manner.
Is putting a beloved one in boiling water less cruel? I'm sure when i do that, he or she won't be smiling to me either.

And to talk about the material, boiling water will give more damage to the hilt.
I used the method once on a keris given to me by a friend. A madura keris with a wooden Solo ukiran, glued to the pesi. I wanted to exchange the wooden Solo ukiran for an old bone Madura ukiran, so i used boiling water.
The Solo ukiran became worthless. The wood cracked and the lacquer became grey and got loose from the wood. A waste of a re-usable Solo ukiran. Here in Europe replacing a keris dress is very hard. That's, I think, the most important reason we prefer to preserve and restore the dress of a keris.

Henk,

It is the Jejeran that is exposed to the boiled water. Compare that with direct flame to the blade????

and Alan is right, the discussion about digdaya or yoni or anything about keris spiritualism should be done in personal manner. Or if anyone wish to continue the discussion, please feel free to create another thread. I agree to to most of Alan posts re mysticism, the meaning of yoni, but beg to differ about digdaya. I will not continue the discussion here, nor open another thread on keris spiritualism, but I promise whenever possible I will give my comments accordingly if anyone starts the thread.

Thank you, it has been enlightening experience here in this thread.

David · 7th September 2010, 03:16 AM

Thank you Alan for clearing up this terminology in a clear and concise manner. This has been a very informative thread indeed.

PenangsangII · 7th September 2010, 03:16 AM

and yes, Alan's last post prettily summed up everything about keris spiritualism/mysticism. Very good general overview, thus my advice to be cautious all the times on how to treat one's keris.

For those who believe and practice keris bearing as a "package" or those who have experience in this matter, my concerns does not apply.

I am concerned to those do not believe, or do not have the knowledge in handling keris as a package, thus suffer in later days (not necessarily him the keris bearer, it could be the surrounding people that he cares about, or later generations.

imas560 · 10th September 2010, 03:57 AM

Hello all,
Just an update for the 5th day. Have dispensed with rag and went for ali foil (thanks Alam Shah).
Have managed to heat most days. Discernible movement around blade axis but no movement away from the blade.

A. G. Maisey · 10th September 2010, 04:33 AM

Imas, could you please describe exactly how you are carrying out this procedure?

Where do you grip the blade?

How hot do you get the blade? If this has been glued in place with an epoxy resin like Araldite, you are going to have to get the tang to above 100C before the bond will be weak enough to pull apart. Araldite begins to soften at about 60C, but you need to get it to probably around 120C before you have a very weak bond. If it held with jabung, it does not need to get quite as hot; jabung is made from a natural resin and wax, once the wax content starts to soften the bond weakens.Shellac has a slightly higher melt point If it is held by tension on cloth, or hair, the tang needs to get hot enough to cause the material to start to smolder

How long do you heat and twist/pull at each heating attempt? When I have a difficult hilt I usually work at it for about 15-20 minutes at a time.

Do you alternate the sides of the blade to which you are applying heat?

I note that you have opted to use aluminium foil. Can you feel the hilt warming through the foil?

How much pressure do you apply when you try to pull the hilt away from the blade?

A keris of this age and type should not be at all difficult to remove the hilt. Five days is the sort of effort that is required from an ivory hilt that the tang has rusted into.

imas560 · 10th September 2010, 03:01 PM

Hello Mr. Maisey,
to try and separate the hilt from blade I grip the blade approx 1 hand width down the blade, enough space that with my right hand I am hard up against the edge of the hilt with thumbs almost fully extended.
I alternate the 2 sides of the blade heating, approx 3 fingers length (50mm/2") along the sororan area closest to the hilt. I only heat for as long as it takes the blade to warm my left hand on the blade.
I generally heat and cool for a maximum of 10 minutes at a time.
I don't feel much heat coming through the foil. I find that when my left hand is warm the sororan area closest to the hilt is getting almost too hot to comfortably touch.
I'm not using too much pressure, am using the guideline from one of the posts of using the strength of the thumbs alone to dictate the force. Am using mainly wrist strength for sideways movement (i.e. no forearm strength).
I'm using a gradual increase in force (i.e. no abrupt wrenching/application of torque).
I have noticed an almost burnt tobacco smell that still lingers long after the blade has cooled.

A. G. Maisey · 10th September 2010, 11:57 PM

Thanks for that Imas.

I suspect that you are not getting the blade nearly hot enough.

I suggest that you hold the blade with your bare hand about halfway along the blade; when the blade gets too hot to hold, stop heating. By "too hot to hold", I mean that if you hold it any longer you're probably going to finish up with a sore hand. You do not stop heating when the blade only gets warm. If a blade is fixed with either jabung or shellac, the level of heat required will cause the jabung or shellac to bubble from around the base of the hilt, or mendak if one is fitted.

When you grip the blade to work the hilt back and forth and to press it off the blade with thumb pressure, you need to use a lump of old rag to grip the blade, if you do not, you will burn your hand, or cut it. It is possible to exert quite a lot of force by pushing your thumbs together, so if this is how you are doing it, the force should be sufficient.

If you feel that your hands are perhaps not strong enough, you can use folded newspaper to protect the blade, and clamp it into a vice. By "folded newspaper" I do not mean one or two sheets, I mean half an inch or so of tightly compacted paper on each side of the blade.

Ten minutes may or may not be long enough, you need to judge the heat by feeling it, and I've told you how to do that. The time is not critical. The regimen of repeated heating and cooling over a period of days is only resorted to with a hilt that is very difficult to remove, and we normally only find these on quite old keris. The most difficult hilts I have had to work with were ivory on old Sumatra keris. These were all very difficult and took a long time to release. Jawa and Madura hilts I have never encountered any real problems with, they normally let go at the first attempt.

If I were doing this hilt of yours, I would not use foil, however, if you feel that it gives you more confidence to use, by all means do so, however, I suggest that you limit the foil cover to only the bottom part of the hilt, so that your bare hand will grip the bare wood, and you can feel the heat through it. This is a small hilt, you do not want it to get too hot, you cannot feel how hot it gets if you cover it.

To return to the subject of heat.
When we heat treat steel to harden it, we take the temperature to a cherry red, this equates to around 700degrees centigrade. That is hot. It will burn right through your skin and flesh. When the steel is hot we cool it suddenly by plunging into oil or water. After this the steel is hard, but it will break easily, so to make it able to be used we draw some of the hardness out of it. To do this we gently heat the steel again until it shows a colour on the polished surface of straw or blue, or what ever colour we need for the purpose that the blade will be put to. You can see this colour change effect if you sharpen a chisel on a grind stone, if the chisel edge starts to go blue you'd better dip it in water immediately, or you'll have a soft chisel.

OK, so you can see that to get steel hot enough to make it soft, you've got to get it very hot. To get a blade hot enough to make it soft you need to leave it sitting in a working fire for a length of time. It is totally impossible to make steel hot enough to soften it in even the slightest degree with a candle.

Additionally, a keris blade is usually only hardened at most up to about three quarters of its length, it is not usually hardened at all in the area of the sorsoran.

A keris blade is made of iron and steel, the steel is a thin wafer inserted between two layers of iron, even if you get the outside of the blade very hot, the steel core of the blade will not be as hot as the outside of the blade. Steel contains carbon and that allows it to be hardened. Iron does not contain carbon, and cannot be hardened. You can heat iron all day long, plunge it into water, and it will still be soft.

It is impossible for you to do any damage at all to your blade by heating it with a candle.

imas560 · 11th September 2010, 12:35 AM

Hello Mr. Maisey,
I appreciate the advice and your taking the time to step me through the process.
I'll shorten up the ali foil on the hilt (was using it to protect the hilt from any damage I might inadvertently do with the candle flame).
I'll let the candle play longer on the blade to build up the heat so I can feel the heat with the hand I hold the hilt with.
Am finding the project very interesting and appreciate everyone's input/pointers.

7th September 2010, 03:16 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,219	Thank you Alan for clearing up this terminology in a clear and concise manner. This has been a very informative thread indeed.

7th September 2010, 03:16 AM	#3
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	and yes, Alan's last post prettily summed up everything about keris spiritualism/mysticism. Very good general overview, thus my advice to be cautious all the times on how to treat one's keris. For those who believe and practice keris bearing as a "package" or those who have experience in this matter, my concerns does not apply. I am concerned to those do not believe, or do not have the knowledge in handling keris as a package, thus suffer in later days (not necessarily him the keris bearer, it could be the surrounding people that he cares about, or later generations.

10th September 2010, 03:57 AM	#4
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Hello all, Just an update for the 5th day. Have dispensed with rag and went for ali foil (thanks Alam Shah). Have managed to heat most days. Discernible movement around blade axis but no movement away from the blade.

10th September 2010, 04:33 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Imas, could you please describe exactly how you are carrying out this procedure? Where do you grip the blade? How hot do you get the blade? If this has been glued in place with an epoxy resin like Araldite, you are going to have to get the tang to above 100C before the bond will be weak enough to pull apart. Araldite begins to soften at about 60C, but you need to get it to probably around 120C before you have a very weak bond. If it held with jabung, it does not need to get quite as hot; jabung is made from a natural resin and wax, once the wax content starts to soften the bond weakens.Shellac has a slightly higher melt point If it is held by tension on cloth, or hair, the tang needs to get hot enough to cause the material to start to smolder How long do you heat and twist/pull at each heating attempt? When I have a difficult hilt I usually work at it for about 15-20 minutes at a time. Do you alternate the sides of the blade to which you are applying heat? I note that you have opted to use aluminium foil. Can you feel the hilt warming through the foil? How much pressure do you apply when you try to pull the hilt away from the blade? A keris of this age and type should not be at all difficult to remove the hilt. Five days is the sort of effort that is required from an ivory hilt that the tang has rusted into.

10th September 2010, 03:01 PM	#6
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Hello Mr. Maisey, to try and separate the hilt from blade I grip the blade approx 1 hand width down the blade, enough space that with my right hand I am hard up against the edge of the hilt with thumbs almost fully extended. I alternate the 2 sides of the blade heating, approx 3 fingers length (50mm/2") along the sororan area closest to the hilt. I only heat for as long as it takes the blade to warm my left hand on the blade. I generally heat and cool for a maximum of 10 minutes at a time. I don't feel much heat coming through the foil. I find that when my left hand is warm the sororan area closest to the hilt is getting almost too hot to comfortably touch. I'm not using too much pressure, am using the guideline from one of the posts of using the strength of the thumbs alone to dictate the force. Am using mainly wrist strength for sideways movement (i.e. no forearm strength). I'm using a gradual increase in force (i.e. no abrupt wrenching/application of torque). I have noticed an almost burnt tobacco smell that still lingers long after the blade has cooled.

10th September 2010, 11:57 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Thanks for that Imas. I suspect that you are not getting the blade nearly hot enough. I suggest that you hold the blade with your bare hand about halfway along the blade; when the blade gets too hot to hold, stop heating. By "too hot to hold", I mean that if you hold it any longer you're probably going to finish up with a sore hand. You do not stop heating when the blade only gets warm. If a blade is fixed with either jabung or shellac, the level of heat required will cause the jabung or shellac to bubble from around the base of the hilt, or mendak if one is fitted. When you grip the blade to work the hilt back and forth and to press it off the blade with thumb pressure, you need to use a lump of old rag to grip the blade, if you do not, you will burn your hand, or cut it. It is possible to exert quite a lot of force by pushing your thumbs together, so if this is how you are doing it, the force should be sufficient. If you feel that your hands are perhaps not strong enough, you can use folded newspaper to protect the blade, and clamp it into a vice. By "folded newspaper" I do not mean one or two sheets, I mean half an inch or so of tightly compacted paper on each side of the blade. Ten minutes may or may not be long enough, you need to judge the heat by feeling it, and I've told you how to do that. The time is not critical. The regimen of repeated heating and cooling over a period of days is only resorted to with a hilt that is very difficult to remove, and we normally only find these on quite old keris. The most difficult hilts I have had to work with were ivory on old Sumatra keris. These were all very difficult and took a long time to release. Jawa and Madura hilts I have never encountered any real problems with, they normally let go at the first attempt. If I were doing this hilt of yours, I would not use foil, however, if you feel that it gives you more confidence to use, by all means do so, however, I suggest that you limit the foil cover to only the bottom part of the hilt, so that your bare hand will grip the bare wood, and you can feel the heat through it. This is a small hilt, you do not want it to get too hot, you cannot feel how hot it gets if you cover it. To return to the subject of heat. When we heat treat steel to harden it, we take the temperature to a cherry red, this equates to around 700degrees centigrade. That is hot. It will burn right through your skin and flesh. When the steel is hot we cool it suddenly by plunging into oil or water. After this the steel is hard, but it will break easily, so to make it able to be used we draw some of the hardness out of it. To do this we gently heat the steel again until it shows a colour on the polished surface of straw or blue, or what ever colour we need for the purpose that the blade will be put to. You can see this colour change effect if you sharpen a chisel on a grind stone, if the chisel edge starts to go blue you'd better dip it in water immediately, or you'll have a soft chisel. OK, so you can see that to get steel hot enough to make it soft, you've got to get it very hot. To get a blade hot enough to make it soft you need to leave it sitting in a working fire for a length of time. It is totally impossible to make steel hot enough to soften it in even the slightest degree with a candle. Additionally, a keris blade is usually only hardened at most up to about three quarters of its length, it is not usually hardened at all in the area of the sorsoran. A keris blade is made of iron and steel, the steel is a thin wafer inserted between two layers of iron, even if you get the outside of the blade very hot, the steel core of the blade will not be as hot as the outside of the blade. Steel contains carbon and that allows it to be hardened. Iron does not contain carbon, and cannot be hardened. You can heat iron all day long, plunge it into water, and it will still be soft. It is impossible for you to do any damage at all to your blade by heating it with a candle.

11th September 2010, 12:35 AM	#8
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Hello Mr. Maisey, I appreciate the advice and your taking the time to step me through the process. I'll shorten up the ali foil on the hilt (was using it to protect the hilt from any damage I might inadvertently do with the candle flame). I'll let the candle play longer on the blade to build up the heat so I can feel the heat with the hand I hold the hilt with. Am finding the project very interesting and appreciate everyone's input/pointers.