A warrior's keris

Sakhti777 · 17th December 2004, 11:15 PM

A nice kris though.. common among the Kelantanese and Trengganu Malays....not much likened by the them due to its simplicity and quality of besi almost equivalent to the Malay Parang of 1940s....not much priced. It looks nice honestly, but I think it has been redressed to look more outstanding ..that what most runners did before selling it to your middleman. I think, Malay forumites must contribute more rather than giving complementary comments. A 20th century keris, not a warrior keris per say but functional to a certain extent. Honestly, I like the dress. Rajamuda..I will provide you my 'insider tips'.

nechesh · 18th December 2004, 12:05 AM

Gee, Sakhti, i think we will all look forward to your "insider tips"

Which end of the 20th century do you believe Blu's keris is from?
What do you particularly find lacking about the besi in this piece and how much can you tell without really handing the keris?
Is simplicity of form really something disliked by the Kelantanese and Trengganu Malays? By comparison to Bali and Jawa keris i find their forms somewhat simplistic, yet there is still a beauty to it.

BTW,Where exactly are you from?

BluErf · 18th December 2004, 02:40 AM

Dear Sakhti,

Thank you for your comments. I'm glad you like the keris.

It is my opinion that this is not a Northen Malayan keris; It is not even a Malay keris to begin with. Everything from the sarong to the dapur and besi suggests to me that it is of Sulawesi Bugis origins. I would like to hear your arguments on why this is a N. Malay keris.

Malay parangs (which I assume you are talking about those from Pattani, Kelantan, Trengganu) are beautiful works of art, and are status symbol wear, though not as high-status as kerises. The besi used can be of high quality too. Prices of good N Malayan parangs are getting quite high these days.

There's nothing spectacular about the dress. Its old, repaired and its a perfect fit for the blade.

As for the 'warrior's keris' remark, well, in over a thousand kerises which I have handled, this keris is one of the toughest, tempered for 80% of the length, with attendant clash marks and nicks. I would presume a keris used in combat belongs to 'warriors'. What would your definition of 'warrior keris' be?

As for the age of the keris, it could well be 20th century, but probably the earlier part of 20th century. As I mentioned, I think this keris could have been forged from European steel. One of the things that late 20th Century pandai besi fall short on is the appreciation of the 'flow of the form'. They have the technical knowledge, but lesser grasp of the aesthetics. And that is often betrayed in their execution of the keris. Also, they tend to squeeze in as much perabot as they can, as if a more complicated keris is better.

A simple form does not make a keris easier to execute well. This keris here has simple form, but its execution is elegant, without compromising functionality. What more do we ask for in a keris of the fabled Sulawesi Bugis?

I look forward to hearing from you again.

Regards,
BluErf

DAHenkel · 18th December 2004, 04:31 AM

If such keris are common in Kelantan and Terengganu you could have fooled me. Fact is its even pretty unusual by Sulawesi standards - which is what makes the piece so special in the first place. Had I seen the blade bare I would have guessed Northeastern Sumatra. Here's a piece thats similar but dressed in the NE Sumatran style.

Photo stolen

from Artzi.

And another from S. Sumatra with a similar blade form but somewhat different, lower quality besi.

That said, the dress on BluErf's keris is unmistakably Sulawesi.

And incidentally - the steel on this piece's blade is quite similar.

Straight keris blades are ubiquitous across the Malay world and are sometimes pretty hard to place. Complicating matters is the fact that many of the cheap Javanese trade blades sold across the archipelago for hundreds of years were straight blades. That said though this blade is clearly no trade blade. the hexagonal cross section is typically Bugis - whether Sulawesi or Straits - as is the besi. To top it all off - the quality of workmanship of Blu's example is certainly one of the best, if not the best of this sort that I've ever seen. None of the examples shown above even comes close. A very fine, certainly high status blade. To denigrate such a piece as "common" and "cheap" (I'm assuming that's what "not much priced" means) is flat ignorant!

And for the record, I've spent a hell of a lot of time trying to figure out the identifying characteristics of the keris of the Northeastern Peninsula but if there is anyone on this forum who can prove to me that such keris were common I'll be damned impressed

ronpakis · 18th December 2004, 01:44 PM

i'm wondering why everybody is amways very eager to call his or her keris one that is used in combat. the keris is to my opinion a non warrior type of weapon. it is a status and talismanic piece of art compare a keris to a klewang in a battle i would choose the klewang.
i also think that this example is 20th century. perhaps the blade is late 19th century but the dress not, also the selut looks not to old just compare it to the old pieces in museum collections. the wood looks to new to meso i agree to a certain level with sakhti777, in holland these are not hard to find.

BluErf · 18th December 2004, 02:54 PM

Hi Ronpakis,

I have 40+ keris in my collection currently. I have probably let go of another 10 or so keris. Of all the kerises I've ever had, I'm only hazarding that this particular keris, and at most 2 others, are fighting kerises.

There's nothing romantic about the notion of a keris being used in combat. In the beginning, kerises were made to be used. Subsequently, they evolved to be become status symbols, art and talismanic articles.

While we agree with that, lets not forget that even in the 18th - 19th century, some kerises were made for fighting and were actually used. While a person would choose a klewang over a keris when going to war, it is equally plausible that during periods of peace, fights do break out involving kerises because no one carries klewangs and tombaks around all the time.

Your analogy is like the M16 is a much more powerful weapon than the 9mm pistol, so everyone will naturally choose M16 over the 9mm. But why then are there so much more people killed by 9mm than M16s these days?

Plus, I do not hazard my guess that this keris is a fighting keris based on a whim. If you could handle the blade, you would know what I mean. The keris is tough as can be and razor sharp. It cut me without me knowing. Why would anyone make an 'artwork' so sharp and tough if not for fighting?

Remember this is a Bugis keris, and the Bugis value practicality over niceties and beautiful pamors. If I may, I will draw an analogy between this Bugis keris and the razor sharp Moro kris, which has been used to deadly effect against the conquistadors.

I make no representations about the age of this keris or its sheath, accessories, nor its value. I don't think that's the point. All I wanted to do is to share what I think is a solid good keris.

If for some reason anyone feels the need to discredit this keris, go ahead. I have said what I wanted to and will 'defend' this keris no more because there's no point.

Let the keris speak for itself.

BluErf · 18th December 2004, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronpakis

...the wood looks to[o] new to me...

While I will not defend the keris anymore, here's one for the wood -- ronpakis -- look more carefully at the wood again. The sheath has pretty good age to it, with patina and age cracks, and as I have mentioned, it has 3 old but very good repairs to the wood.

The wood is not new, man! You have got to learn how to tell new wood from old wood, and start identifying the various types of wood used in making keris sheaths. It will help you better identify the origins, and sometimes, the authenticity of a keris.
(pendoko is new, I agree)

I may be primarily a 'blade person', but I have grown to love wood more and more, so pardon me for this post.

As for your unfortunate incident with the fake Madurese ivory handle, I'm sad to hear that. Be more careful in the future, and there's always no harm in discussing with or asking other more experienced collectors.

ronpakis · 18th December 2004, 03:56 PM

hello bluerf

its nothing personal, im reffering to the photos and most of the time its not clear tot see, i dont doubt your opinion.
about the warrior aspect: i think it could be used as a weapon but not primarily then you will use a "real" weapon like a sundang with a real fighting handle (fitted strong to the handle) i agree its not common to make it razorsharpe.
i'm not putting the keris to the ground its just my opinion, i like a keris when it is made traditional it doesnt have to be old. i did not say i dislike the keris

nechesh · 18th December 2004, 05:19 PM

Ronpakis, there seems to be much confusion around the intention and purpose of the keris. It seems to me that it did not originate as a weapon only to be used for statis and ceremony, but developed to that point over time. I don't believe this development was universal to all areas of Indonesia and it seems that certain groups, such as the Bugis held on to its use as a weapon longer than, say, the Javanese, where the keris was elevated to a high status art form. It is my understanding that the Bugis were known for actually using the keris in battle. I also suspect that certain Balinese keris also saw some battle. As for securing handles for combat, you would be surprised what a bit of pitch will do. I have a Bali keris that when i received it i swore it was epoxyed to the hulu, but after heating the blade a bit i was able to disconnect them and found it was attached with pitch. Like Blu's Bugis keris, this keris also exhibits nicks on the blade that indicate it was used to parry another blade, i assume in some kind of fight. It is important to realize that attitudes about the purpose of the keris have evolved over many centuries and in different manners depending upon the precise keris bearing people from which they originate. It is very difficult to make certain blanket statements about keris such as it is not a "real" weapon. Trust me, i have keris that can kill you quite efficiently.

18th December 2004, 04:31 AM	#4
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	If such keris are common in Kelantan and Terengganu you could have fooled me. Fact is its even pretty unusual by Sulawesi standards - which is what makes the piece so special in the first place. Had I seen the blade bare I would have guessed Northeastern Sumatra. Here's a piece thats similar but dressed in the NE Sumatran style. Photo stolen from Artzi. And another from S. Sumatra with a similar blade form but somewhat different, lower quality besi. That said, the dress on BluErf's keris is unmistakably Sulawesi. And incidentally - the steel on this piece's blade is quite similar. Straight keris blades are ubiquitous across the Malay world and are sometimes pretty hard to place. Complicating matters is the fact that many of the cheap Javanese trade blades sold across the archipelago for hundreds of years were straight blades. That said though this blade is clearly no trade blade. the hexagonal cross section is typically Bugis - whether Sulawesi or Straits - as is the besi. To top it all off - the quality of workmanship of Blu's example is certainly one of the best, if not the best of this sort that I've ever seen. None of the examples shown above even comes close. A very fine, certainly high status blade. To denigrate such a piece as "common" and "cheap" (I'm assuming that's what "not much priced" means) is flat ignorant! And for the record, I've spent a hell of a lot of time trying to figure out the identifying characteristics of the keris of the Northeastern Peninsula but if there is anyone on this forum who can prove to me that such keris were common I'll be damned impressed Attached Images Last edited by DAHenkel; 18th December 2004 at 04:49 AM. Reason: Fixing image tags

18th December 2004, 01:44 PM	#5
ronpakis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: netherlands Posts: 75	the term "warrior keris" i'm wondering why everybody is amways very eager to call his or her keris one that is used in combat. the keris is to my opinion a non warrior type of weapon. it is a status and talismanic piece of art compare a keris to a klewang in a battle i would choose the klewang. i also think that this example is 20th century. perhaps the blade is late 19th century but the dress not, also the selut looks not to old just compare it to the old pieces in museum collections. the wood looks to new to meso i agree to a certain level with sakhti777, in holland these are not hard to find.

18th December 2004, 02:54 PM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Ronpakis, I have 40+ keris in my collection currently. I have probably let go of another 10 or so keris. Of all the kerises I've ever had, I'm only hazarding that this particular keris, and at most 2 others, are fighting kerises. There's nothing romantic about the notion of a keris being used in combat. In the beginning, kerises were made to be used. Subsequently, they evolved to be become status symbols, art and talismanic articles. While we agree with that, lets not forget that even in the 18th - 19th century, some kerises were made for fighting and were actually used. While a person would choose a klewang over a keris when going to war, it is equally plausible that during periods of peace, fights do break out involving kerises because no one carries klewangs and tombaks around all the time. Your analogy is like the M16 is a much more powerful weapon than the 9mm pistol, so everyone will naturally choose M16 over the 9mm. But why then are there so much more people killed by 9mm than M16s these days? Plus, I do not hazard my guess that this keris is a fighting keris based on a whim. If you could handle the blade, you would know what I mean. The keris is tough as can be and razor sharp. It cut me without me knowing. Why would anyone make an 'artwork' so sharp and tough if not for fighting? Remember this is a Bugis keris, and the Bugis value practicality over niceties and beautiful pamors. If I may, I will draw an analogy between this Bugis keris and the razor sharp Moro kris, which has been used to deadly effect against the conquistadors. I make no representations about the age of this keris or its sheath, accessories, nor its value. I don't think that's the point. All I wanted to do is to share what I think is a solid good keris. If for some reason anyone feels the need to discredit this keris, go ahead. I have said what I wanted to and will 'defend' this keris no more because there's no point. Let the keris speak for itself. Last edited by BluErf; 18th December 2004 at 03:04 PM.

17th December 2004, 11:15 PM	#1
Sakhti777 Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Penang Posts: 14	A nice kris though.. common among the Kelantanese and Trengganu Malays....not much likened by the them due to its simplicity and quality of besi almost equivalent to the Malay Parang of 1940s....not much priced. It looks nice honestly, but I think it has been redressed to look more outstanding ..that what most runners did before selling it to your middleman. I think, Malay forumites must contribute more rather than giving complementary comments. A 20th century keris, not a warrior keris per say but functional to a certain extent. Honestly, I like the dress. Rajamuda..I will provide you my 'insider tips'.

18th December 2004, 12:05 AM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Gee, Sakhti, i think we will all look forward to your "insider tips" Which end of the 20th century do you believe Blu's keris is from? What do you particularly find lacking about the besi in this piece and how much can you tell without really handing the keris? Is simplicity of form really something disliked by the Kelantanese and Trengganu Malays? By comparison to Bali and Jawa keris i find their forms somewhat simplistic, yet there is still a beauty to it. BTW,Where exactly are you from?

18th December 2004, 02:40 AM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Dear Sakhti, Thank you for your comments. I'm glad you like the keris. It is my opinion that this is not a Northen Malayan keris; It is not even a Malay keris to begin with. Everything from the sarong to the dapur and besi suggests to me that it is of Sulawesi Bugis origins. I would like to hear your arguments on why this is a N. Malay keris. Malay parangs (which I assume you are talking about those from Pattani, Kelantan, Trengganu) are beautiful works of art, and are status symbol wear, though not as high-status as kerises. The besi used can be of high quality too. Prices of good N Malayan parangs are getting quite high these days. There's nothing spectacular about the dress. Its old, repaired and its a perfect fit for the blade. As for the 'warrior's keris' remark, well, in over a thousand kerises which I have handled, this keris is one of the toughest, tempered for 80% of the length, with attendant clash marks and nicks. I would presume a keris used in combat belongs to 'warriors'. What would your definition of 'warrior keris' be? As for the age of the keris, it could well be 20th century, but probably the earlier part of 20th century. As I mentioned, I think this keris could have been forged from European steel. One of the things that late 20th Century pandai besi fall short on is the appreciation of the 'flow of the form'. They have the technical knowledge, but lesser grasp of the aesthetics. And that is often betrayed in their execution of the keris. Also, they tend to squeeze in as much perabot as they can, as if a more complicated keris is better. A simple form does not make a keris easier to execute well. This keris here has simple form, but its execution is elegant, without compromising functionality. What more do we ask for in a keris of the fabled Sulawesi Bugis? I look forward to hearing from you again. Regards, BluErf

18th December 2004, 03:56 PM	#8
ronpakis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: netherlands Posts: 75	hello bluerf its nothing personal, im reffering to the photos and most of the time its not clear tot see, i dont doubt your opinion. about the warrior aspect: i think it could be used as a weapon but not primarily then you will use a "real" weapon like a sundang with a real fighting handle (fitted strong to the handle) i agree its not common to make it razorsharpe. i'm not putting the keris to the ground its just my opinion, i like a keris when it is made traditional it doesnt have to be old. i did not say i dislike the keris

18th December 2004, 05:19 PM	#9
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Ronpakis, there seems to be much confusion around the intention and purpose of the keris. It seems to me that it did not originate as a weapon only to be used for statis and ceremony, but developed to that point over time. I don't believe this development was universal to all areas of Indonesia and it seems that certain groups, such as the Bugis held on to its use as a weapon longer than, say, the Javanese, where the keris was elevated to a high status art form. It is my understanding that the Bugis were known for actually using the keris in battle. I also suspect that certain Balinese keris also saw some battle. As for securing handles for combat, you would be surprised what a bit of pitch will do. I have a Bali keris that when i received it i swore it was epoxyed to the hulu, but after heating the blade a bit i was able to disconnect them and found it was attached with pitch. Like Blu's Bugis keris, this keris also exhibits nicks on the blade that indicate it was used to parry another blade, i assume in some kind of fight. It is important to realize that attitudes about the purpose of the keris have evolved over many centuries and in different manners depending upon the precise keris bearing people from which they originate. It is very difficult to make certain blanket statements about keris such as it is not a "real" weapon. Trust me, i have keris that can kill you quite efficiently.