Help with Identification please

[David]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

to play it safe, in order to remove the hilt that is attached to the pesi using damar/jabung etc, just soak the entire hilt in boiled water.... in less than 3 minutes, normally the hilt can easily be removed.

Wow...that seems really excessive to me. It is pretty sure to do damage to the finish of the hilt i would think. Sure the blade is the most important element, but i see no reason to endanger a nice hilt in this manner. The heat required to loosen a blade is not nearly as dangerous to the blade.

[BigG]

Originally Posted by David

Wow...that seems really excessive to me.

Gentlemen, Its all a matter of perspective. The method described by Penangsang is pretty much in used in M'sia & S'pore... I cant speak for Indonesia as I am not certain about the practices ther. But the main objective is to save the blade... & especially the peksi.

As I have writtn elsewhere here, the Malay perspective of the value & the strength of the keris resides in the peksi. The peksi & the blade needs to be protected above all else. On top of that, being in Malaysia and S'pore, getting access to excellent qlty hilts, whether newly made or antique is farmore relatively easier.

Thus, a combination of all this factors wld make the method decribed by Penangsang not seen to excessive at all and in fact to be very apt. So its a matter of context.

Another example is the placement of the hilts. When a hilt is not properly oriented when received & when they are unable to be removed by all other methods... I have known many serious collectors to have made the decision to destroy the hilt by hacking it off in order to save the blade, protect the peksi and ensure that the hilt is placed in the correct orientation rather then leaving it be. Again its a mtter of context. Blade & peksi first... hilts... to many collectors here is secondary...

[A. G. Maisey]

The advice I have already given is based upon this:-

I have in excess of 55 years collecting, buying, selling, making, restoring keris.

Apart from what I have taught myself, I have learnt Javanese methods of restoration from several mranggis, including two who were in my employ for many years. One of these men was the son, and grandson of mranggis.

I have learnt other aspects of keris manufacture and restoration from several blade makers.

I have also made a very large number of damascus and carbon steel blades and was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for a number of years.

The way in which heat can damage a blade is by heating it to a point where the temper will be drawn. The area of the blade that is heated to remove a hilt is almost never heat treated in a keris blade, thus there is no temper to draw.

The heat generated by a candle or a small kerosene lamp is not sufficient to damage a blade in any way at all.It is not possible to raise the temperature of a blade to the point where temper can be drawn, by use of a candle or kerosene lamp.

Hilt to blade can be secured by rust, cloth, hair, damar, jabung, or shellac, or in some cases a modern glue or epoxy resin.

Boiling water may soften jabung if the wax content is sufficiently high, but it will have no effect on rust, damar, shellac or epoxy resin.

Boiling water will cause cloth to expand at approximately the same rate that it causes wood to expand, because of this there is a risk of splitting the wood in the hilt.

That risk of splitting applies in all cases as soon as the hilt enters the boiling water.

If the hilt does not split, depending upon the finish that has been applied to the hilt, it will possibly need refinishing.

In my most humble opinion the practice here related of immersing a complete hilt into boiling water in order to remove it from a blade is most certainly barbaric and verges upon idiocy.

I accept what has been related , that this is common practice in Singapore and Malaysia, and this being the case, it tells me all I need to know about the professionalism and skill of the people who engage in this practice.

Regrettably Big G I must disagree with you that this is a matter of perspective.

It is not.

It is a matter of professional standards.

The dominant professional standard to be applied in the restoration of any keris is to proceed in a way that will cause no damage to the keris. No damage to blade. No damage to hilt. No damage to mendak. No damage to any part of the keris.

The profession involved is the profession of the m'ranggi, and this has had a long and continuous history in Jawa.

I would most sincerely suggest that the people who currently subscribe to the boiling water philosophy would be doing themselves and their clients a very great service by seeking out some instruction from true professionals in this field of keris restoration.

[BigG]

Thank you for the reiteration, yet again, of the vast experience that you have in the field. I accept that not many amongst us here can hope to claim to have the vastness of experience that you do. However mr Maisey, your views, perspective and practices on the matter and its origins are just one of many. The context that you practice and espouse those views is yet again different from our own.

That the views and underlying basis for those views do not match yours is, whether you accept it or not, a matter of fact. That you would denigrate them because it doesnt quite fit in into your own comfort level saddens me. but I do hope that you would be more mindful of using the terms that you have in refering to us in the way that you have.

In the mind of many collectors here, the blade & the Peksi is everything. Thus, the manner that is employed. Not everyone do this, but many do.

There is a rich seam of untapped knowledge in terms of practices that are based on matters of practicality and customs amongs the collectors here that are unknown by many forumers. Many are not motivated to share but some are... What penangsang have done in making us aware of one of the practicalities of the collectors here should be applauded. It may not to the liking and may astound many, but it was shared in the spirit of openness. It is sad that his views have been treated in the way that it has been.

[Jussi M.]

Greetings,

Sorry to jump in like this but I feel compelled to and in the following I´ll explain why.

Originally Posted by BigG

In the mind of many collectors here, the blade & the Peksi is everything. Thus, the manner that is employed. Not everyone do this, but many do.

There is a rich seam of untapped knowledge in terms of practices that are based on matters of practicality and customs amongs the collectors here that are unknown by many forumers. Many are not motivated to share but some are... What penangsang have done in making us aware of one of the practicalities of the collectors here should be applauded. It may not to the liking and may astound many, but it was shared in the spirit of openness.

Yes, it is true that there is variance to methods used to maintain and restore a keris and it´s dress within different areas and groups of people associated with the keris. That is OK, each to his own, and all that. Yes, it is wonderful that knowledge is shared – is that not the very reason for the existence of this forum? Yes, it is true that - and I quote - "In the mind of many collectors here, the blade & the Peksi is everything. Thus, the manner that is employed." That is true also BUT, and this is a big but, all here do not share this view. In fact to many - myself included - the dress is also of utmost importance, sometimes even more so than the actual blade itself regardless of how heretic that may appear to others.

Most people here like myself are ignorant and participate in order to learn - to ask those with more experience what and what not to do in order to not mess things up. Think about the possible consequences that may result if someone ignorant who has bought a keris for it´s dress decides to clean and re-stain it´s blade and decides to follow PenangsangII´s advise:

(emphasis added)

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

to play it safe, in order to remove the hilt that is attached to the pesi using damar/jabung etc, just soak the entire hilt in boiled water.... in less than 3 minutes, normally the hilt can easily be removed.

And to clean the blade safely, just soak it in water (best is pure water coming down from waterfall or spring water...) mix with fresh pineapple cubes (pineapple skin is better) and mengkudu (Morinda Citrifolia). This is traditional method practised by Javanese living in Malaysia.

It is clear that the above statement is made with the best of intentions but it stems from a frame in which dress is seen as something disposable. Yet for many collectors dress matters. Thus it is of utmost importance to address the pros and cons when describing these things here as people´s values differ. For someone like me thus the proposed method is not safe but a very likely guarantee to end up in the most saddest of conditions.

One should always remember the audience one is addressing. Little knowledge is dangerous if it is not understood where it stems from and what it´s implications are. Reflected against this background I feel that Mr. Maisey´s commentary on this boiling the hilt-practice within the frame of this international collectors forum was to a point if - pun intended - admittedly a bit pointy. For me personally the dress with all it´s components parts are alike culturally and artistically appreciable as is the actual blade itself. Other peoples mileage may – and does – vary, and that is why these "other people" should always be kept in mind when addressing procedures such as the proposed method of removing the hilt on an international forum such as this.

Thanks,

J.

[A. G. Maisey]

Big G, I have read and understood this most recent post of yours, the one prior to it, and the post of Penangsang.

The comments I have made to date I personally consider to be very restrained,and in no way criticism of an unfair nature, which of course is the meaning of "denigrate". In light of the recommendations made, even though made in good faith, I consider that I have been overly polite and quite delicate in my comments.

Most certainly I have criticised the methods which are apparently employed in Singapore and Malaysia, by those entrusted with the preservation of the creations of their ancestors. However, this criticism is no way unfair. The methods described by Penangsang, and supported by yourself are methods which will cause damage, they are not methods which can be used in full assurance that no damage will result to a hilt.

Perhaps sometimes immersion in boiling water will assist in freeing a hilt from a pesi, but at what cost?

Penangsang has mentioned that he has used boiling water a number of times without damage to the hilt. I would suggest two things, firstly he has been lucky, and secondly that if he followed exactly the process he advised in his post, it is probable that the hilt could have been removed without the application of any kind of heat, but just by the application of a little professional skill.

Not only can these methods not be relied upon not to damage a hilt, but they can most certainly be relied upon to create an increased level of risk of breakage of the pesi where that pesi is heavily rusted and is being retained in the hilt by rust.This risk will be multiplied where the hilt is of ivory, bone or horn. rather than wood. Then of course, we have the tayuman situation, and old tayuman hilts are not low cost disposables.

The judicious use of heat will loosen any pesi , whether it has been retained by rust, jabung or anything else.

Boiling water will not be effective in all cases, but can be relied upon to raise the level of risk of a broken pesi, as well as a split hilt.

If one has no concern as to whether the hilt is damaged, and the pesi is broken, by all means immerse the hilt in boiling water.

However, if one wishes to free the hilt without breaking the pesi and with no damage to the hilt, then one should learn how to use heat to do this.

I most certainly accept that the methods I have recommended are not the only methods, however, they are methods used in Central Jawa by people with a great deal more experience than I have, in some cases by people who can count generations of their forebears as mranggis before them.The methods I have recommended are well tested, and they do work, not only that, but used correctly they do not ever result in damage to any part of the keris.

What I have stated here is not opinion.

It is demonstrable fact.

[BigG]

Firstly let me state that I agree that the dress of the keris is of equal importance to the blade of the keris. I have personally never used the boiling method and have been careful to inform ay craftsmen who would restore pieces that I own to not employ this method. I personally value the asthetics of the dress as much as I do the blade. The pcs that I have shared wth here and would share more in the future, wld attest to this... But what I am stating here is the fact, that this method is employed by many, not all... but many as a means of removing a hilt. And I have given the forumers the rationale of why this method is being employed by many in this particular region...

And that rationale in my opinion is bcos of the inordinate importance that is given by them to the blade as well as the peksi as oppose to the dress, especially the hilt. The other rationale to this is because of the relative ease in which a hilt can be replace here... new or antique... I have endeavoured to inform the forumers here, newbies & veterans alike that there is an alternative but it is chosen as a result of the specific context of the situation found here. That this method is found to be shocking or unacceptable should not detract from the fact that it exist and is being employed. I accept that it is unacceptable to many in the forum... It is also something that would not be resorted to by many here, including myself... but that it exist, and is considered valid by peope for the reasons that I have mentioned should also be made known.

Be critical of this method if you feel needful to by all means... Explain the contextual rationale behind it to make the forumers understand why this may not be something that they should consider, by all means... but surely by any standard of decorum... labelling a member's effort at disclosing what he applies and intend to share in good faith as an act of barbarism & idiocy would be far from what wld be considered as restrained. We may disagree about what is being said, we should endeavour to tamper its impact and we should if we believe that we know better... but we should not maligned these views the way that it has been done here...

As we Malays would say it;
"Orang berbudi kita berbahasa"...
As they are civil so are we courteous. ..

Lets reciprocate ideas and views sounded off in good faith in the manner that it deserves...