Help with Identification please

A. G. Maisey · 1st September 2010, 01:42 AM

Yes, I have mentioned a couple of times that I use a gas torch, but I have never recommended this for use, because if you're new at this game, it is too difficult to control. A candle or a small kero lamp is never ever going to damage the blade through too much heat.Others may also have mentioned a torch, but maybe they have the experience to gauge the correct amount of heat. Its not a good tool for somebody without experience to use.

Apart from the daily scrubbing with a toothbrush you also need to pick any little bits of hard rust off with a sharp metal tool. A saddler's awl is good, so is an old three sided file ground to a point.

Depending on how rusty the blade is you can also scrub with steel wool and sink cleaner during the cleaning period.

When you consider the blade to be clean, you need to scrub with steel wool and sink cleaner to get it white, before you begin to stain it. If you cannot get arsenic, and you're satisfied with the result out of the pineapple juice, then obviously you don't whiten the blade.If you decide to leave the blade as is out of the juice, you need to ensure that you get every last trace of juice off that blade, dry it immediately and then dry with a hair dryer.Spray with WD40 and allow to stand over night.

You'll easily see when its clean, because there will be no rust left on it. None at all.

You don't need to change the juice. In hot weather it will grow a fungus on top, which stinks and is unsightly, but this can just be lifted off and thrown away. In cool weather it will stay clear of fungus.

As Rick has said, sandalwood oil is not easy to get and is expensive. Sandalwood is the smell of the traditional oil. In Jawa this is added to a coconut oil base. In fact, other oils are also used, and the coconut oil used in Jawa is not necessarily ideal as a base. The best protection will be afforded by a good gun oil. Light machine oil is also OK. If you can find an alternate lifestyle shop/ hippy shop or even a health food store, you'll find that they probably sell essential oils. You may find sandalwood there, or some other acceptable oil such as jasmin or rose, you can mix one of these essential oils with medicinal parrafin, and that will give you an acceptable keris oil.Essential oils are used in aroma therapy, and in Australia you can find an acceptable oil almost anywhere, even in small country towns.You don't need much of the essential oil to give the parrafin a decent smell.

I always wrap a freshly cleaned,stained, oiled blade in plastic. This will give protection against deterioration for a very long time.

BigG · 1st September 2010, 06:20 AM

I used Wahl brand light machine oil. It is odourless and colourless. It is a brand generally associated with hair clippers. To this, I would blend in my own mix of floral scent... i guess this is easier found here in my back of the woods... but essential oils use in aromatherapy.. like Mr Maisey has said, workswell too.

You may consider using a mix of something sweet and floral like jasmine, rose etc and cut it wth a bit of something citrusy.. This is to prevent the overpowering presence of the floral note.

Once you mix these oils they should generally dissolve together... if not just leave it to collect at the base of the container as it will still transmit is fragrance to the rest of the oil. use only the top clear portion when oiling your keris.. hope this wld help...

rgds

PenangsangII · 3rd September 2010, 04:34 AM

to play it safe, in order to remove the hilt that is attached to the pesi using damar/jabung etc, just soak the entire hilt in boiled water.... in less than 3 minutes, normally the hilt can easily be removed.

And to clean the blade safely, just soak it in water (best is pure water coming down from waterfall or spring water...) mix with fresh pineapple cubes (pineapple skin is better) and mengkudu (Morinda Citrifolia). This is traditional method practised by Javanese living in Malaysia.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd September 2010, 04:59 AM

That's playing it safe?

Interesting approach.

PenangsangII · 3rd September 2010, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

That's playing it safe?

Interesting approach.

Playing it safe in the sense that this way the blade meets minimum contact to heat, torch etc.... I know that this way, the hilt could be ruined or damaged, but the main issue is to preserve the keris blade, not the dress....

and in my limited experience, never once I damaged the hilt removed this way..

David · 3rd September 2010, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

to play it safe, in order to remove the hilt that is attached to the pesi using damar/jabung etc, just soak the entire hilt in boiled water.... in less than 3 minutes, normally the hilt can easily be removed.

Wow...that seems really excessive to me. It is pretty sure to do damage to the finish of the hilt i would think. Sure the blade is the most important element, but i see no reason to endanger a nice hilt in this manner. The heat required to loosen a blade is not nearly as dangerous to the blade.

BigG · 3rd September 2010, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Wow...that seems really excessive to me.

Gentlemen, Its all a matter of perspective. The method described by Penangsang is pretty much in used in M'sia & S'pore... I cant speak for Indonesia as I am not certain about the practices ther. But the main objective is to save the blade... & especially the peksi.

As I have writtn elsewhere here, the Malay perspective of the value & the strength of the keris resides in the peksi. The peksi & the blade needs to be protected above all else. On top of that, being in Malaysia and S'pore, getting access to excellent qlty hilts, whether newly made or antique is farmore relatively easier.

Thus, a combination of all this factors wld make the method decribed by Penangsang not seen to excessive at all and in fact to be very apt. So its a matter of context.

Another example is the placement of the hilts. When a hilt is not properly oriented when received & when they are unable to be removed by all other methods... I have known many serious collectors to have made the decision to destroy the hilt by hacking it off in order to save the blade, protect the peksi and ensure that the hilt is placed in the correct orientation rather then leaving it be. Again its a mtter of context. Blade & peksi first... hilts... to many collectors here is secondary...

A. G. Maisey · 3rd September 2010, 09:21 AM

The advice I have already given is based upon this:-

I have in excess of 55 years collecting, buying, selling, making, restoring keris.

Apart from what I have taught myself, I have learnt Javanese methods of restoration from several mranggis, including two who were in my employ for many years. One of these men was the son, and grandson of mranggis.

I have learnt other aspects of keris manufacture and restoration from several blade makers.

I have also made a very large number of damascus and carbon steel blades and was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for a number of years.

The way in which heat can damage a blade is by heating it to a point where the temper will be drawn. The area of the blade that is heated to remove a hilt is almost never heat treated in a keris blade, thus there is no temper to draw.

The heat generated by a candle or a small kerosene lamp is not sufficient to damage a blade in any way at all.It is not possible to raise the temperature of a blade to the point where temper can be drawn, by use of a candle or kerosene lamp.

Hilt to blade can be secured by rust, cloth, hair, damar, jabung, or shellac, or in some cases a modern glue or epoxy resin.

Boiling water may soften jabung if the wax content is sufficiently high, but it will have no effect on rust, damar, shellac or epoxy resin.

Boiling water will cause cloth to expand at approximately the same rate that it causes wood to expand, because of this there is a risk of splitting the wood in the hilt.

That risk of splitting applies in all cases as soon as the hilt enters the boiling water.

If the hilt does not split, depending upon the finish that has been applied to the hilt, it will possibly need refinishing.

In my most humble opinion the practice here related of immersing a complete hilt into boiling water in order to remove it from a blade is most certainly barbaric and verges upon idiocy.

I accept what has been related , that this is common practice in Singapore and Malaysia, and this being the case, it tells me all I need to know about the professionalism and skill of the people who engage in this practice.

Regrettably Big G I must disagree with you that this is a matter of perspective.

It is not.

It is a matter of professional standards.

The dominant professional standard to be applied in the restoration of any keris is to proceed in a way that will cause no damage to the keris. No damage to blade. No damage to hilt. No damage to mendak. No damage to any part of the keris.

The profession involved is the profession of the m'ranggi, and this has had a long and continuous history in Jawa.

I would most sincerely suggest that the people who currently subscribe to the boiling water philosophy would be doing themselves and their clients a very great service by seeking out some instruction from true professionals in this field of keris restoration.

BigG · 3rd September 2010, 09:58 AM

Thank you for the reiteration, yet again, of the vast experience that you have in the field. I accept that not many amongst us here can hope to claim to have the vastness of experience that you do. However mr Maisey, your views, perspective and practices on the matter and its origins are just one of many. The context that you practice and espouse those views is yet again different from our own.

That the views and underlying basis for those views do not match yours is, whether you accept it or not, a matter of fact. That you would denigrate them because it doesnt quite fit in into your own comfort level saddens me. but I do hope that you would be more mindful of using the terms that you have in refering to us in the way that you have.

In the mind of many collectors here, the blade & the Peksi is everything. Thus, the manner that is employed. Not everyone do this, but many do.

There is a rich seam of untapped knowledge in terms of practices that are based on matters of practicality and customs amongs the collectors here that are unknown by many forumers. Many are not motivated to share but some are... What penangsang have done in making us aware of one of the practicalities of the collectors here should be applauded. It may not to the liking and may astound many, but it was shared in the spirit of openness. It is sad that his views have been treated in the way that it has been.

1st September 2010, 01:42 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Yes, I have mentioned a couple of times that I use a gas torch, but I have never recommended this for use, because if you're new at this game, it is too difficult to control. A candle or a small kero lamp is never ever going to damage the blade through too much heat.Others may also have mentioned a torch, but maybe they have the experience to gauge the correct amount of heat. Its not a good tool for somebody without experience to use. Apart from the daily scrubbing with a toothbrush you also need to pick any little bits of hard rust off with a sharp metal tool. A saddler's awl is good, so is an old three sided file ground to a point. Depending on how rusty the blade is you can also scrub with steel wool and sink cleaner during the cleaning period. When you consider the blade to be clean, you need to scrub with steel wool and sink cleaner to get it white, before you begin to stain it. If you cannot get arsenic, and you're satisfied with the result out of the pineapple juice, then obviously you don't whiten the blade.If you decide to leave the blade as is out of the juice, you need to ensure that you get every last trace of juice off that blade, dry it immediately and then dry with a hair dryer.Spray with WD40 and allow to stand over night. You'll easily see when its clean, because there will be no rust left on it. None at all. You don't need to change the juice. In hot weather it will grow a fungus on top, which stinks and is unsightly, but this can just be lifted off and thrown away. In cool weather it will stay clear of fungus. As Rick has said, sandalwood oil is not easy to get and is expensive. Sandalwood is the smell of the traditional oil. In Jawa this is added to a coconut oil base. In fact, other oils are also used, and the coconut oil used in Jawa is not necessarily ideal as a base. The best protection will be afforded by a good gun oil. Light machine oil is also OK. If you can find an alternate lifestyle shop/ hippy shop or even a health food store, you'll find that they probably sell essential oils. You may find sandalwood there, or some other acceptable oil such as jasmin or rose, you can mix one of these essential oils with medicinal parrafin, and that will give you an acceptable keris oil.Essential oils are used in aroma therapy, and in Australia you can find an acceptable oil almost anywhere, even in small country towns.You don't need much of the essential oil to give the parrafin a decent smell. I always wrap a freshly cleaned,stained, oiled blade in plastic. This will give protection against deterioration for a very long time.

1st September 2010, 06:20 AM	#2
BigG Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Singapore Posts: 75	I used Wahl brand light machine oil. It is odourless and colourless. It is a brand generally associated with hair clippers. To this, I would blend in my own mix of floral scent... i guess this is easier found here in my back of the woods... but essential oils use in aromatherapy.. like Mr Maisey has said, workswell too. You may consider using a mix of something sweet and floral like jasmine, rose etc and cut it wth a bit of something citrusy.. This is to prevent the overpowering presence of the floral note. Once you mix these oils they should generally dissolve together... if not just leave it to collect at the base of the container as it will still transmit is fragrance to the rest of the oil. use only the top clear portion when oiling your keris.. hope this wld help... rgds

3rd September 2010, 04:34 AM	#3
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	to play it safe, in order to remove the hilt that is attached to the pesi using damar/jabung etc, just soak the entire hilt in boiled water.... in less than 3 minutes, normally the hilt can easily be removed. And to clean the blade safely, just soak it in water (best is pure water coming down from waterfall or spring water...) mix with fresh pineapple cubes (pineapple skin is better) and mengkudu (Morinda Citrifolia). This is traditional method practised by Javanese living in Malaysia.

3rd September 2010, 04:59 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	That's playing it safe? Interesting approach.

3rd September 2010, 09:21 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	The advice I have already given is based upon this:- I have in excess of 55 years collecting, buying, selling, making, restoring keris. Apart from what I have taught myself, I have learnt Javanese methods of restoration from several mranggis, including two who were in my employ for many years. One of these men was the son, and grandson of mranggis. I have learnt other aspects of keris manufacture and restoration from several blade makers. I have also made a very large number of damascus and carbon steel blades and was a member of the Australian Knifemakers Guild for a number of years. The way in which heat can damage a blade is by heating it to a point where the temper will be drawn. The area of the blade that is heated to remove a hilt is almost never heat treated in a keris blade, thus there is no temper to draw. The heat generated by a candle or a small kerosene lamp is not sufficient to damage a blade in any way at all.It is not possible to raise the temperature of a blade to the point where temper can be drawn, by use of a candle or kerosene lamp. Hilt to blade can be secured by rust, cloth, hair, damar, jabung, or shellac, or in some cases a modern glue or epoxy resin. Boiling water may soften jabung if the wax content is sufficiently high, but it will have no effect on rust, damar, shellac or epoxy resin. Boiling water will cause cloth to expand at approximately the same rate that it causes wood to expand, because of this there is a risk of splitting the wood in the hilt. That risk of splitting applies in all cases as soon as the hilt enters the boiling water. If the hilt does not split, depending upon the finish that has been applied to the hilt, it will possibly need refinishing. In my most humble opinion the practice here related of immersing a complete hilt into boiling water in order to remove it from a blade is most certainly barbaric and verges upon idiocy. I accept what has been related , that this is common practice in Singapore and Malaysia, and this being the case, it tells me all I need to know about the professionalism and skill of the people who engage in this practice. Regrettably Big G I must disagree with you that this is a matter of perspective. It is not. It is a matter of professional standards. The dominant professional standard to be applied in the restoration of any keris is to proceed in a way that will cause no damage to the keris. No damage to blade. No damage to hilt. No damage to mendak. No damage to any part of the keris. The profession involved is the profession of the m'ranggi, and this has had a long and continuous history in Jawa. I would most sincerely suggest that the people who currently subscribe to the boiling water philosophy would be doing themselves and their clients a very great service by seeking out some instruction from true professionals in this field of keris restoration.

3rd September 2010, 09:58 AM	#9
BigG Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Singapore Posts: 75	Thank you for the reiteration, yet again, of the vast experience that you have in the field. I accept that not many amongst us here can hope to claim to have the vastness of experience that you do. However mr Maisey, your views, perspective and practices on the matter and its origins are just one of many. The context that you practice and espouse those views is yet again different from our own. That the views and underlying basis for those views do not match yours is, whether you accept it or not, a matter of fact. That you would denigrate them because it doesnt quite fit in into your own comfort level saddens me. but I do hope that you would be more mindful of using the terms that you have in refering to us in the way that you have. In the mind of many collectors here, the blade & the Peksi is everything. Thus, the manner that is employed. Not everyone do this, but many do. There is a rich seam of untapped knowledge in terms of practices that are based on matters of practicality and customs amongs the collectors here that are unknown by many forumers. Many are not motivated to share but some are... What penangsang have done in making us aware of one of the practicalities of the collectors here should be applauded. It may not to the liking and may astound many, but it was shared in the spirit of openness. It is sad that his views have been treated in the way that it has been.