Lance head ?? Indo Persian? Seller stated African

Tim Simmons · 29th August 2010, 07:05 PM

David, is there any way you can show the marks on this piece. A picture, rubbing or just copy then to a piece of paper. I am most interested to see. I have been doing some digging. The red paint is also interesting.

katana · 30th August 2010, 11:46 AM

Hi Tim,
thanks for your interest. Heres a drawn picture

Kind Regards David

Tim Simmons · 30th August 2010, 01:29 PM

Interesting. Could it be just engraving? Are they like Indian symbols? The placing and minimalism does not remind me of Idian work. I could see some similarity to Adinkra symbols? It might even be a piece of iron in a ritual context? The red paint might have some relavance?

katana · 30th August 2010, 09:34 PM

Hi Tim,
the dark rust stablised patination covers around 98% of the surface, I decided to use a nylon type 'washing up' scourer to clean the surrounding area..... using a lot of water and gentle pressure.

This has nearly entirely removed the design

, the design was a dull/shiny silver colour. I am convinced that this was the remains of koftgari which due to corrosion had 'lifted' from the steel and was held in 'suspension' in the stablised patina. I had sucessfully removed some of this layer....but in doing so had also removed much of the 'noticeable' koftgari

The 'sun' sign was only around 3mm in size and was very precise , as were the surviving lines.

Still, believing that it was indeed koftgari and the taking into account that this piece might be circa 18th C. I have concluded that the steel may be of quality ....perhaps even wootz (although I'm not holding my breath). I have decided to clean the 'head' and try an etch.

I am leaving the socket, as is, at the moment....until I can find out the relevance of the red ring.

All the best,

Kind Regards David

PS. I have found the 'remains' of another identical 'sun' sign next to the edge, just below one of the fullers

katana · 31st August 2010, 05:19 PM

The saga continues....after further cleaning I have found faint flower motifs, decorated borders and other very fine design detailing in varying amounts. The sides of the head have symmetrical designs (either side of the midrib), so where some of the designs are worn on one side of the blade they are sometimes evident on the other.

At first glance they seem to be acid etched but am almost certain that they are the remaining imprints of the koftgari which has 'marked' the steel. Perhaps these are caused by the remaining silver particles or some sort of electrolytic action between the silver and steel

Of what I can make out the designs are definately India.

The steel does appear to be possibly wootz, the difficulty is due to the remaining designs which give the 'appearance' of 'patterning'.

On older pieces was koftgari mainly used on quality steel such as wootz ? Should I clean and polish a window and etch ? All comments and opinions apreciated, thank you

Regards David

katana · 7th September 2010, 09:34 PM

Below is a picture of a Khanda hilt, the Koftgari designs are very similar to the visible 'ghosting' marks I can see in the spear head.

Would these designs be common to certain areas of India, or groups or are they fairly common ?

Regards David

.

dketch · 17th March 2011, 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by katana

Yours seems very similar to something I have .....

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...highlight=lance

Regards David

Wow! David, your spear top looks almost identical in shape and size to the one I bought. Do you think my pike was built in the same area or timeframe as the one you have? If so, any idea as to when / where it was made?

VERY interesting....

- Doug

30th August 2010, 11:46 AM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Tim, thanks for your interest. Heres a drawn picture Kind Regards David Attached Images

30th August 2010, 01:29 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	Interesting. Could it be just engraving? Are they like Indian symbols? The placing and minimalism does not remind me of Idian work. I could see some similarity to Adinkra symbols? It might even be a piece of iron in a ritual context? The red paint might have some relavance? Last edited by Tim Simmons; 30th August 2010 at 06:10 PM.

30th August 2010, 09:34 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Tim, the dark rust stablised patination covers around 98% of the surface, I decided to use a nylon type 'washing up' scourer to clean the surrounding area..... using a lot of water and gentle pressure. This has nearly entirely removed the design , the design was a dull/shiny silver colour. I am convinced that this was the remains of koftgari which due to corrosion had 'lifted' from the steel and was held in 'suspension' in the stablised patina. I had sucessfully removed some of this layer....but in doing so had also removed much of the 'noticeable' koftgari The 'sun' sign was only around 3mm in size and was very precise , as were the surviving lines. Still, believing that it was indeed koftgari and the taking into account that this piece might be circa 18th C. I have concluded that the steel may be of quality ....perhaps even wootz (although I'm not holding my breath). I have decided to clean the 'head' and try an etch. I am leaving the socket, as is, at the moment....until I can find out the relevance of the red ring. All the best, Kind Regards David PS. I have found the 'remains' of another identical 'sun' sign next to the edge, just below one of the fullers Last edited by katana; 30th August 2010 at 10:36 PM.

7th September 2010, 09:34 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Below is a picture of a Khanda hilt, the Koftgari designs are very similar to the visible 'ghosting' marks I can see in the spear head. Would these designs be common to certain areas of India, or groups or are they fairly common ? Regards David . Attached Images

17th March 2011, 02:53 AM	#7
dketch Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 12	Identification Originally Posted by katana Yours seems very similar to something I have ..... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...highlight=lance Regards David Wow! David, your spear top looks almost identical in shape and size to the one I bought. Do you think my pike was built in the same area or timeframe as the one you have? If so, any idea as to when / where it was made? VERY interesting.... - Doug

29th August 2010, 07:05 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	David, is there any way you can show the marks on this piece. A picture, rubbing or just copy then to a piece of paper. I am most interested to see. I have been doing some digging. The red paint is also interesting.

31st August 2010, 05:19 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	The saga continues....after further cleaning I have found faint flower motifs, decorated borders and other very fine design detailing in varying amounts. The sides of the head have symmetrical designs (either side of the midrib), so where some of the designs are worn on one side of the blade they are sometimes evident on the other. At first glance they seem to be acid etched but am almost certain that they are the remaining imprints of the koftgari which has 'marked' the steel. Perhaps these are caused by the remaining silver particles or some sort of electrolytic action between the silver and steel Of what I can make out the designs are definately India. The steel does appear to be possibly wootz, the difficulty is due to the remaining designs which give the 'appearance' of 'patterning'. On older pieces was koftgari mainly used on quality steel such as wootz ? Should I clean and polish a window and etch ? All comments and opinions apreciated, thank you Regards David