Ever heard of a cannononball .. ovoid?

kronckew · 23rd August 2010, 06:58 PM

heated shot was my next guess.

heated shot was as noted used against wooden ships. most fortresses had ovens for heating shot & used well soaked wads to keep the heat away from the powder. firing rates were reduced due to the extra cooling and swabbing required, and as might be imagined, once loaded the cannon had to be fired fairly quickly. accidents did happen. the french built a large number of coastal 'fortresses' consisting of a few guns in earthen embankments, with a small shed for the soldiers and many of these had shot ovens.

i've not heard of it being used in normal land warfare where the shot could roll and be recovered like this one, or i'd possibly considered that. it might have been used in a siege to bombard a town and set it alight, tho i'd expect it to have impact marks.

the health and safety crowd would definitely not allow heated shot nowadays....

Heated Shot

Heated shot furnace

Dmitry · 23rd August 2010, 07:22 PM

The shape of this ball could also be a result of poor casting.

kronckew · 23rd August 2010, 07:34 PM

since cannon balls rusted and scaled in damp storage conditions, the gunners used a shot gauge, a round 'ring on a stick', if the shot passed thru the gauge, it was usable. casting in those days would have been in sand moulds and defective pours would have been common. i'm still surprised that there are no apparent mould lines or sprue marks. cannon balls were never machined post casting other than to knock off the sprues and/or flashing where the metal had been poured. shot was invariably a loose fit. the wadding helped cut down the windage.

laEspadaAncha · 24th August 2010, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

The shape of this ball could also be a result of poor casting.

In support of the above comment, I have a cannonball recovered off private land at the site of the Battle of San Pasqual, and it too is deformed.

It is not nearly as big as the one above, at a little under 3 inches... possibly used by the Sutter Gun, a provincial small 4-pounder. Shot produced in frontier California tended to be of a lessor quality than what the Dragoons likely would have brought as part of their ordinance.

Anyway, as shown from two perspectives orthogonal to one another - you can see it is still (more or less) "in the round" when viewed from the top-down, but when viewed from the side, well, it's kind of ovoid...

Jim McDougall · 24th August 2010, 08:24 PM

Really interesting discussion! and I keep wondering, if this could have simply been an anomaly in casting shot, perhaps the mold became flawed, and the deformed ball was simply tossed aside. Although normally one would presume the iron would be reforged, but maybe this one missed?

Could hot shot have possibly reached near molten state and as noted, deformed as fired? It would seem that at near molten state, no amount of soaked wadding would have kept the powder from accidental detonation...in ths case, probably disastrous, with this notable deformed ball the surviving piece.

On another note, seeking possible industrial instance....

"...here is the very important exhibition of the anonyme society of the forges, usines and bronze, of Gilly (M. Aime Robert, administrator deleague). Excavators, pestle hammers, cranes, locomotives for manufactures and harbours, engines of flattening mills, and thier specialty is the construction of engines to fabricate 'the OVOID CANNON BALLS'.
"Universal Exhibition Paris, 1889"
C.H. Bartels, p.104

While I have no idea of the context here, the mention of these ovoid cannon balls caught my eye, and seen in the industrial possibilty.

I am hoping someone more familiar with manufacturing or engineering antiquities might have some ideas on these. It seems the term cannonball has become so colloquially and metaphorically used, it becomes difficult to search authentic references to them. Its like trying to study something from history or literature and coming up with endless rock band names or songs!

All best regards,
Jim

kronckew · 25th August 2010, 07:50 AM

with the advent of rifled cannon and breech loaders in the latter half of the 19th century, the cannon shot would be essentially cylindrical with an ogival end to reduce air friction and a flattened end carrying the engaging bands on the circumference that would take the rifling (and also allow them to be stored on end so they would not roll around). the ogive at the end would give them an oval appearance. by 1889 i believe that spherical solid shot was essentially obsolete.

even solid round shot during the american civil war was usually mounted in a wooden sabot which would be strapped to the shot with two bands of tin plated iron. these were frequently made up with wadding, and a pre-measured and bagged charge of powder into a complete round of ammunition that could be shoved down the barrel in one go.

the charge would be set off by a primer which was a long tube containing the primer compound and a prick with a sharp end to penetrate the bag, the primer had a pull ring at the other end which would ignite the primer thru friction when pulled - with a long cord. in large artillery and naval guns, charge could be varied by adding extra bags of powder behind the shot.

one easily viewed example is the main 16" gun on the USS missouri used in steven segal's movie 'seige' where they show it being loaded with a rather ovoid shell, followed by six bags of powder. these were fired electrically, but had a chemical primer backup justincase.

a good reference on american civil war era projectiles is the civil war artillery site at this Linky which has photos of hundreds of different projectile types. a very good demonstration firing video is listed under 'cool stuff'. some of the photos in 'cool stuff' show typical confederate and union edged weapons.

fernando · 25th August 2010, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Could hot shot have possibly reached near molten state and as noted, deformed as fired?

This not having to be the case, i have read that one of the risks of hot shot was that the ball could expand its size with too much heat and become problematic for loading.
So why wouldn't the thing also deform while being shot?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Its like trying to study something from history or literature and coming up with endless rock band names or songs! ...

Yes, your'e dead right; a famous name came immediately to my mind: Cannonball Adderley. Are you a jazz lover, Jim?

.

Jim McDougall · 25th August 2010, 06:36 PM

I neglected to note that my suggestion on flawed casting was also suggested by Dmitry, and although not established as a conclusion here, seems to remain plausible.

On the dynamics involved in firing, I wanted to thank Krockew for the fantastic and beautifully explained examples of firing and characteristics of these various projectiles. Along with the excellent example shown by Chris of the deformed shot from the battlefield, this material really begins to have fascinating dimension, and its great to learn more about the history of these cannons and firing.

Good example on the expansion of the metal when heated Fernando, and point well taken about heat expansion....really have had to watch tire inflation in travelling through these desert areas in temps up to 120 degrees indexed!!

Actually the more I look at the example Fernando has posted, it seems perhaps it might reflect distortion that might result in forward force as from being fired while extremely hot (as previously suggested). I am wondering if spherical shot when fired would spin or turn, or would the forward force keep it relatively fixed? more physics I guess, but if it was relatively fixed, the material would distort and begin to trail, yes?

On Chris' example, found on a California battlefield, I'm not sure the distortion here would be from heated shot as I dont think they would have used that in ths case. From what I understand, the heated shot was intended for incendiary results, and these would not have been required in a frontier battle where no structures were in place. It would have been logistically improbable as well IMO, so this example must have resulted from other causes. Even an excessive charge in firing would have only created a momentary burst of heat without duration and not been able to distort the shot, I would think.

Yup, definitely a music lover Nando!!! everything from blues to rock to heavy metal (wonder why they never had a group named cannonballs?

....and yes, I do know who Cannonball Adderly was !! Hard not to, one of the greats.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 26th August 2010, 06:03 AM

Sorry to come in late on this one with my .2 cents. Agreed it does resemble an iron cannon ball more than a mill ball. I bought what I thought was a cannonball a number of years ago, but under the grime, it proved to be a steel mill ball (

).

I think this is a cannon ball, perhaps used as hotshot and deformed on impact. I have seen (hee hee) balls with flattened sides and bent/deformed bar-shot that struck hard structures.

Still another possibility is that this is a cannon ball made using the 'shot tower' method. I've included two sites explaining this innovative method of making cannon shot, and although one confesses that the balls produced were perfectly round, I beg to differ. Confederate cannon balls were often ovoid, had rough seams, were oblong, etc. In any case, a dropped shot could explain the deformity in times of desparation during war-time. I imagine it would still have fired poorly, though...

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/W...er_Columbus_OH

http://www.examiner.com/downtown-bal...pplied-physics

fernando · 24th August 2010, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... heated shot was as noted used against wooden ships ...

Oh yes, it also was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heated_shot

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... most fortresses had ovens for heating shot ...

Some of them shooting at ships:

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM3J37

The largest famous use of hot shot has been performed by the British, during the Gibraltar siege in 1782, against French and Spanish floating artillery:

http://www.clis.com/friends/HotShot.htm

.

fernando · 24th August 2010, 04:39 PM

Translating an extract of the " History of the first seizure happened in the Rio de Janeiro, in 21st of September of 1711", by Ricardo Bonalume Neto; in which a daring French privateer, René Duguay-Trouin, practiced the first seizure of the Rio de Janeiro, in great style. He captured the whole city and demanded a high ransom.

... Forts are made from stone and they do not set fire if atacked with spherical bullets of iron, shot from cannons with a 2 kilometres reach. However wooden ships, with canvas sails and carrying gunpowder, are highly flammable; and the defender can get hold of a mighty weapon: bullets that can be heated in furnaces and shot still red-hot. The greatest enemy of the attacker is the fire, therefore the fleet must avoid to be exchanging shots with the forts ...
.

23rd August 2010, 06:58 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	heated shot was my next guess. heated shot was as noted used against wooden ships. most fortresses had ovens for heating shot & used well soaked wads to keep the heat away from the powder. firing rates were reduced due to the extra cooling and swabbing required, and as might be imagined, once loaded the cannon had to be fired fairly quickly. accidents did happen. the french built a large number of coastal 'fortresses' consisting of a few guns in earthen embankments, with a small shed for the soldiers and many of these had shot ovens. i've not heard of it being used in normal land warfare where the shot could roll and be recovered like this one, or i'd possibly considered that. it might have been used in a siege to bombard a town and set it alight, tho i'd expect it to have impact marks. the health and safety crowd would definitely not allow heated shot nowadays.... Heated Shot Heated shot furnace Last edited by kronckew; 23rd August 2010 at 07:29 PM.

25th August 2010, 07:50 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	with the advent of rifled cannon and breech loaders in the latter half of the 19th century, the cannon shot would be essentially cylindrical with an ogival end to reduce air friction and a flattened end carrying the engaging bands on the circumference that would take the rifling (and also allow them to be stored on end so they would not roll around). the ogive at the end would give them an oval appearance. by 1889 i believe that spherical solid shot was essentially obsolete. even solid round shot during the american civil war was usually mounted in a wooden sabot which would be strapped to the shot with two bands of tin plated iron. these were frequently made up with wadding, and a pre-measured and bagged charge of powder into a complete round of ammunition that could be shoved down the barrel in one go. the charge would be set off by a primer which was a long tube containing the primer compound and a prick with a sharp end to penetrate the bag, the primer had a pull ring at the other end which would ignite the primer thru friction when pulled - with a long cord. in large artillery and naval guns, charge could be varied by adding extra bags of powder behind the shot. one easily viewed example is the main 16" gun on the USS missouri used in steven segal's movie 'seige' where they show it being loaded with a rather ovoid shell, followed by six bags of powder. these were fired electrically, but had a chemical primer backup justincase. a good reference on american civil war era projectiles is the civil war artillery site at this Linky which has photos of hundreds of different projectile types. a very good demonstration firing video is listed under 'cool stuff'. some of the photos in 'cool stuff' show typical confederate and union edged weapons. Last edited by kronckew; 25th August 2010 at 09:42 AM.

25th August 2010, 06:36 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	I neglected to note that my suggestion on flawed casting was also suggested by Dmitry, and although not established as a conclusion here, seems to remain plausible. On the dynamics involved in firing, I wanted to thank Krockew for the fantastic and beautifully explained examples of firing and characteristics of these various projectiles. Along with the excellent example shown by Chris of the deformed shot from the battlefield, this material really begins to have fascinating dimension, and its great to learn more about the history of these cannons and firing. Good example on the expansion of the metal when heated Fernando, and point well taken about heat expansion....really have had to watch tire inflation in travelling through these desert areas in temps up to 120 degrees indexed!! Actually the more I look at the example Fernando has posted, it seems perhaps it might reflect distortion that might result in forward force as from being fired while extremely hot (as previously suggested). I am wondering if spherical shot when fired would spin or turn, or would the forward force keep it relatively fixed? more physics I guess, but if it was relatively fixed, the material would distort and begin to trail, yes? On Chris' example, found on a California battlefield, I'm not sure the distortion here would be from heated shot as I dont think they would have used that in ths case. From what I understand, the heated shot was intended for incendiary results, and these would not have been required in a frontier battle where no structures were in place. It would have been logistically improbable as well IMO, so this example must have resulted from other causes. Even an excessive charge in firing would have only created a momentary burst of heat without duration and not been able to distort the shot, I would think. Yup, definitely a music lover Nando!!! everything from blues to rock to heavy metal (wonder why they never had a group named cannonballs? ....and yes, I do know who Cannonball Adderly was !! Hard not to, one of the greats. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 25th August 2010 at 07:46 PM.

23rd August 2010, 07:22 PM	#2
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	The shape of this ball could also be a result of poor casting.

23rd August 2010, 07:34 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	since cannon balls rusted and scaled in damp storage conditions, the gunners used a shot gauge, a round 'ring on a stick', if the shot passed thru the gauge, it was usable. casting in those days would have been in sand moulds and defective pours would have been common. i'm still surprised that there are no apparent mould lines or sprue marks. cannon balls were never machined post casting other than to knock off the sprues and/or flashing where the metal had been poured. shot was invariably a loose fit. the wadding helped cut down the windage.

24th August 2010, 08:24 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Really interesting discussion! and I keep wondering, if this could have simply been an anomaly in casting shot, perhaps the mold became flawed, and the deformed ball was simply tossed aside. Although normally one would presume the iron would be reforged, but maybe this one missed? Could hot shot have possibly reached near molten state and as noted, deformed as fired? It would seem that at near molten state, no amount of soaked wadding would have kept the powder from accidental detonation...in ths case, probably disastrous, with this notable deformed ball the surviving piece. On another note, seeking possible industrial instance.... "...here is the very important exhibition of the anonyme society of the forges, usines and bronze, of Gilly (M. Aime Robert, administrator deleague). Excavators, pestle hammers, cranes, locomotives for manufactures and harbours, engines of flattening mills, and thier specialty is the construction of engines to fabricate 'the OVOID CANNON BALLS'. "Universal Exhibition Paris, 1889" C.H. Bartels, p.104 While I have no idea of the context here, the mention of these ovoid cannon balls caught my eye, and seen in the industrial possibilty. I am hoping someone more familiar with manufacturing or engineering antiquities might have some ideas on these. It seems the term cannonball has become so colloquially and metaphorically used, it becomes difficult to search authentic references to them. Its like trying to study something from history or literature and coming up with endless rock band names or songs! All best regards, Jim

26th August 2010, 06:03 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,146	Sorry to come in late on this one with my .2 cents. Agreed it does resemble an iron cannon ball more than a mill ball. I bought what I thought was a cannonball a number of years ago, but under the grime, it proved to be a steel mill ball ( ). I think this is a cannon ball, perhaps used as hotshot and deformed on impact. I have seen (hee hee) balls with flattened sides and bent/deformed bar-shot that struck hard structures. Still another possibility is that this is a cannon ball made using the 'shot tower' method. I've included two sites explaining this innovative method of making cannon shot, and although one confesses that the balls produced were perfectly round, I beg to differ. Confederate cannon balls were often ovoid, had rough seams, were oblong, etc. In any case, a dropped shot could explain the deformity in times of desparation during war-time. I imagine it would still have fired poorly, though... http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/W...er_Columbus_OH http://www.examiner.com/downtown-bal...pplied-physics

24th August 2010, 04:39 PM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Translating an extract of the " History of the first seizure happened in the Rio de Janeiro, in 21st of September of 1711", by Ricardo Bonalume Neto; in which a daring French privateer, René Duguay-Trouin, practiced the first seizure of the Rio de Janeiro, in great style. He captured the whole city and demanded a high ransom. ... Forts are made from stone and they do not set fire if atacked with spherical bullets of iron, shot from cannons with a 2 kilometres reach. However wooden ships, with canvas sails and carrying gunpowder, are highly flammable; and the defender can get hold of a mighty weapon: bullets that can be heated in furnaces and shot still red-hot. The greatest enemy of the attacker is the fire, therefore the fleet must avoid to be exchanging shots with the forts ... .