Ever heard of a cannononball .. ovoid?

fernando · 23rd August 2010, 04:33 PM

Thank you all gentlemen, for your input.
I had already been in that link website during my browsing, Wayne.
It appears to me that this is not likely to be a mill ball.
Those spheres are usuallly hardened steel, whereas my example is iron.
I have phoned a cement maker technician; the wearing of mill balls has a smooth texture.
Also i think that a mill ball, worn by continuous random tumbling, would get a alietory shape due to its variable movimentation and not such a regular one, which looks to have been submited to a specific rotation, orientated in a linear direction.
I know nothing about metalurgy either, but probably a steel mill ball woud not degradate through time in the same manner, with such corrugated and scaled look.
A remote probability would be considering that this ball was used for "hot shot", having been "stretched" in its itinerary through the barrel or, not hitting a direct impact target, having rolled on the ground in a regular manner (drum like), before cooling down.
Thing is i don't even know if hotshot was used in Portugal

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Jim McDougall · 23rd August 2010, 05:39 PM

Fernando, beautifully explained and nicely done on the research on this! Thank you. As I mentioned, this is way outside my field of study and it's great to learn more on this subject. I had never even thought much on mill balls, and your explanation of the dynamics is excellent.

I of course had never hear of a 'hot shot' in these terms either, though of course hearing the expression in popular usage countless times, never thinking of its meaning. What was the purpose of this as opposed to a regular shot, was it intentional? Can you explain more on this, for myself and those not especially well versed in artillery.

Thanks very much again Nando!!! Really interesting item, you really find them!! and are great at sharing these curiosities here.

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 23rd August 2010, 05:55 PM

Thank you for the usual kindness, Jim.
Hot shot is an artillery resource in which the cannon ball is pre-heated to a read hot condition in a furnace so that, when shot against wooden ships, besides its destructive impact, sets them on fire.
One can imagine the extreme care taken to load these amunitions, to prevent them from setting fire and burst out the cannon itself ... desintegrating all the boys around

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kronckew · 23rd August 2010, 06:58 PM

heated shot was my next guess.

heated shot was as noted used against wooden ships. most fortresses had ovens for heating shot & used well soaked wads to keep the heat away from the powder. firing rates were reduced due to the extra cooling and swabbing required, and as might be imagined, once loaded the cannon had to be fired fairly quickly. accidents did happen. the french built a large number of coastal 'fortresses' consisting of a few guns in earthen embankments, with a small shed for the soldiers and many of these had shot ovens.

i've not heard of it being used in normal land warfare where the shot could roll and be recovered like this one, or i'd possibly considered that. it might have been used in a siege to bombard a town and set it alight, tho i'd expect it to have impact marks.

the health and safety crowd would definitely not allow heated shot nowadays....

Heated Shot

Heated shot furnace

Dmitry · 23rd August 2010, 07:22 PM

The shape of this ball could also be a result of poor casting.

kronckew · 23rd August 2010, 07:34 PM

since cannon balls rusted and scaled in damp storage conditions, the gunners used a shot gauge, a round 'ring on a stick', if the shot passed thru the gauge, it was usable. casting in those days would have been in sand moulds and defective pours would have been common. i'm still surprised that there are no apparent mould lines or sprue marks. cannon balls were never machined post casting other than to knock off the sprues and/or flashing where the metal had been poured. shot was invariably a loose fit. the wadding helped cut down the windage.

laEspadaAncha · 24th August 2010, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

The shape of this ball could also be a result of poor casting.

In support of the above comment, I have a cannonball recovered off private land at the site of the Battle of San Pasqual, and it too is deformed.

It is not nearly as big as the one above, at a little under 3 inches... possibly used by the Sutter Gun, a provincial small 4-pounder. Shot produced in frontier California tended to be of a lessor quality than what the Dragoons likely would have brought as part of their ordinance.

Anyway, as shown from two perspectives orthogonal to one another - you can see it is still (more or less) "in the round" when viewed from the top-down, but when viewed from the side, well, it's kind of ovoid...

Jim McDougall · 24th August 2010, 08:24 PM

Really interesting discussion! and I keep wondering, if this could have simply been an anomaly in casting shot, perhaps the mold became flawed, and the deformed ball was simply tossed aside. Although normally one would presume the iron would be reforged, but maybe this one missed?

Could hot shot have possibly reached near molten state and as noted, deformed as fired? It would seem that at near molten state, no amount of soaked wadding would have kept the powder from accidental detonation...in ths case, probably disastrous, with this notable deformed ball the surviving piece.

On another note, seeking possible industrial instance....

"...here is the very important exhibition of the anonyme society of the forges, usines and bronze, of Gilly (M. Aime Robert, administrator deleague). Excavators, pestle hammers, cranes, locomotives for manufactures and harbours, engines of flattening mills, and thier specialty is the construction of engines to fabricate 'the OVOID CANNON BALLS'.
"Universal Exhibition Paris, 1889"
C.H. Bartels, p.104

While I have no idea of the context here, the mention of these ovoid cannon balls caught my eye, and seen in the industrial possibilty.

I am hoping someone more familiar with manufacturing or engineering antiquities might have some ideas on these. It seems the term cannonball has become so colloquially and metaphorically used, it becomes difficult to search authentic references to them. Its like trying to study something from history or literature and coming up with endless rock band names or songs!

All best regards,
Jim

fernando · 24th August 2010, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... heated shot was as noted used against wooden ships ...

Oh yes, it also was:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heated_shot

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... most fortresses had ovens for heating shot ...

Some of them shooting at ships:

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM3J37

The largest famous use of hot shot has been performed by the British, during the Gibraltar siege in 1782, against French and Spanish floating artillery:

http://www.clis.com/friends/HotShot.htm

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fernando · 24th August 2010, 04:39 PM

Translating an extract of the " History of the first seizure happened in the Rio de Janeiro, in 21st of September of 1711", by Ricardo Bonalume Neto; in which a daring French privateer, René Duguay-Trouin, practiced the first seizure of the Rio de Janeiro, in great style. He captured the whole city and demanded a high ransom.

... Forts are made from stone and they do not set fire if atacked with spherical bullets of iron, shot from cannons with a 2 kilometres reach. However wooden ships, with canvas sails and carrying gunpowder, are highly flammable; and the defender can get hold of a mighty weapon: bullets that can be heated in furnaces and shot still red-hot. The greatest enemy of the attacker is the fire, therefore the fleet must avoid to be exchanging shots with the forts ...
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23rd August 2010, 04:33 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you all gentlemen, for your input. I had already been in that link website during my browsing, Wayne. It appears to me that this is not likely to be a mill ball. Those spheres are usuallly hardened steel, whereas my example is iron. I have phoned a cement maker technician; the wearing of mill balls has a smooth texture. Also i think that a mill ball, worn by continuous random tumbling, would get a alietory shape due to its variable movimentation and not such a regular one, which looks to have been submited to a specific rotation, orientated in a linear direction. I know nothing about metalurgy either, but probably a steel mill ball woud not degradate through time in the same manner, with such corrugated and scaled look. A remote probability would be considering that this ball was used for "hot shot", having been "stretched" in its itinerary through the barrel or, not hitting a direct impact target, having rolled on the ground in a regular manner (drum like), before cooling down. Thing is i don't even know if hotshot was used in Portugal . . Attached Images

23rd August 2010, 06:58 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	heated shot was my next guess. heated shot was as noted used against wooden ships. most fortresses had ovens for heating shot & used well soaked wads to keep the heat away from the powder. firing rates were reduced due to the extra cooling and swabbing required, and as might be imagined, once loaded the cannon had to be fired fairly quickly. accidents did happen. the french built a large number of coastal 'fortresses' consisting of a few guns in earthen embankments, with a small shed for the soldiers and many of these had shot ovens. i've not heard of it being used in normal land warfare where the shot could roll and be recovered like this one, or i'd possibly considered that. it might have been used in a siege to bombard a town and set it alight, tho i'd expect it to have impact marks. the health and safety crowd would definitely not allow heated shot nowadays.... Heated Shot Heated shot furnace Last edited by kronckew; 23rd August 2010 at 07:29 PM.

23rd August 2010, 05:39 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Fernando, beautifully explained and nicely done on the research on this! Thank you. As I mentioned, this is way outside my field of study and it's great to learn more on this subject. I had never even thought much on mill balls, and your explanation of the dynamics is excellent. I of course had never hear of a 'hot shot' in these terms either, though of course hearing the expression in popular usage countless times, never thinking of its meaning. What was the purpose of this as opposed to a regular shot, was it intentional? Can you explain more on this, for myself and those not especially well versed in artillery. Thanks very much again Nando!!! Really interesting item, you really find them!! and are great at sharing these curiosities here. All the best, Jim

23rd August 2010, 05:55 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you for the usual kindness, Jim. Hot shot is an artillery resource in which the cannon ball is pre-heated to a read hot condition in a furnace so that, when shot against wooden ships, besides its destructive impact, sets them on fire. One can imagine the extreme care taken to load these amunitions, to prevent them from setting fire and burst out the cannon itself ... desintegrating all the boys around .

23rd August 2010, 07:22 PM	#5
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	The shape of this ball could also be a result of poor casting.

23rd August 2010, 07:34 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	since cannon balls rusted and scaled in damp storage conditions, the gunners used a shot gauge, a round 'ring on a stick', if the shot passed thru the gauge, it was usable. casting in those days would have been in sand moulds and defective pours would have been common. i'm still surprised that there are no apparent mould lines or sprue marks. cannon balls were never machined post casting other than to knock off the sprues and/or flashing where the metal had been poured. shot was invariably a loose fit. the wadding helped cut down the windage.

24th August 2010, 08:24 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Really interesting discussion! and I keep wondering, if this could have simply been an anomaly in casting shot, perhaps the mold became flawed, and the deformed ball was simply tossed aside. Although normally one would presume the iron would be reforged, but maybe this one missed? Could hot shot have possibly reached near molten state and as noted, deformed as fired? It would seem that at near molten state, no amount of soaked wadding would have kept the powder from accidental detonation...in ths case, probably disastrous, with this notable deformed ball the surviving piece. On another note, seeking possible industrial instance.... "...here is the very important exhibition of the anonyme society of the forges, usines and bronze, of Gilly (M. Aime Robert, administrator deleague). Excavators, pestle hammers, cranes, locomotives for manufactures and harbours, engines of flattening mills, and thier specialty is the construction of engines to fabricate 'the OVOID CANNON BALLS'. "Universal Exhibition Paris, 1889" C.H. Bartels, p.104 While I have no idea of the context here, the mention of these ovoid cannon balls caught my eye, and seen in the industrial possibilty. I am hoping someone more familiar with manufacturing or engineering antiquities might have some ideas on these. It seems the term cannonball has become so colloquially and metaphorically used, it becomes difficult to search authentic references to them. Its like trying to study something from history or literature and coming up with endless rock band names or songs! All best regards, Jim

24th August 2010, 04:39 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Translating an extract of the " History of the first seizure happened in the Rio de Janeiro, in 21st of September of 1711", by Ricardo Bonalume Neto; in which a daring French privateer, René Duguay-Trouin, practiced the first seizure of the Rio de Janeiro, in great style. He captured the whole city and demanded a high ransom. ... Forts are made from stone and they do not set fire if atacked with spherical bullets of iron, shot from cannons with a 2 kilometres reach. However wooden ships, with canvas sails and carrying gunpowder, are highly flammable; and the defender can get hold of a mighty weapon: bullets that can be heated in furnaces and shot still red-hot. The greatest enemy of the attacker is the fire, therefore the fleet must avoid to be exchanging shots with the forts ... .