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#1 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: York, UK
Posts: 167
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If I may, fellas, I'll go in reverse order with the replies since my memory is dire.
Stuart: Unfortunately, this particular barrel's plug is resolutely committed to staying precisely where it is; having got some rust and dirt off it, I'd surmise it's been hammered in while both it and the barrel were hot, the whole then being left to shrink-fit together. This is a right royal pain in the backside, quite honestly, since with a threaded plug I could simply remove it, get a torch and have a good nosey around within. Why these Indo-Persian gunsmiths were so keen on sealing their breeches this permanently I'm honestly not sure; it makes cleaning them out an utter bind and makes very problematic an obstruction which, in a threaded-ended barrel, would be a minor annoyance. Curiously, as an aside, this barrel looks to have seen some use, yet the touch-hole is positioned what seems very far back along the barrel; so much so, in fact, that I think I can see the breech plug through it, forming a wall that covers the rear third of the hole and forces the gas jet from the priming pan through a turn of about 60 degrees. It's almost as if the barrel was made without too much reference to where the lock would be in relation to it, and the hole drilled there out of necessity. Anyway, Philip. Amazingly, you haven't yet screamed in horror at the awful clunker I've acquired, which is nice! Regarding the Immovable Screw of the Kandahar, it turned out to be less immovable than I thought; leaving WD40 to soak into the threads for a bit, followed by a larger pair of pliers than I had at home, did the trick nicely, and revealed that the thread on its tip is barely cut at all; it seems that what's been holding it in place for so long is rust. Since the gun isn't going to shoot any time soon I've left the screw reasonably slack, seeing little need for absolute firmness in the lock. It's in place, but not particularly tight. All this at the cost of a few small gouges and scratches in the wood, so I'm quite pleased really; a small price to pay for making the Immovable Screw of the Kandahar become the Not-Quite-Immovable Screw of York ![]() Regarding the questions you asked: the bore is, roughly,. .615in, or a 20-bore, give or take, or so the dealer averred. Measuring at the muzzle with a ruler - I have no means of measuring down the barrel - I get 5/16 of an inch, which about matches up. I have here a pair of cleaning brushes, both of which seem to be rather oversized, but one of which has been down the works jezail and thus become quite well shaped to that barrel which, although rifled, is happily of almost the same bore. I do indeed have a worm, but it's attached to a piece of wood and really only good for breaking up compacted powder etc; I'd have to nip to York Guns, probably, to get a worm/auger attachment, and getting it in 20-bore might not be too easy, but I shall have a go. And Battara, thanks! I shall greatly enjoy working on my first antique gun! |
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#2 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: York, UK
Posts: 167
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Oh god... why does this happen to me!? I'm now in deep trouble. I have a copper brush jammed in the damn thing and I can't get it out. Nothing I have will do the job and I'm desperate to remove it - it came cleanly off its bloody cleaning rod, threaded portion and all, and nothing I do will grip it or remove it
![]() Edit: Well, having calmed down somewhat, I've begun looking for a gunsmith specialising in black powder work hereabouts. By great good luck, there's a chap named Peter Dyson about 40 miles away - so I shall see if he can help me out, since I think removing this obstruction is beyond my means. But, on the plus side, the lock is free once again! It's very, very worn; so much so that the gun will fire from the half-cock notch, and for some reason the sear keeps engaging the half-cock notch even when fired from the cocked position, but I don't think that's too shabby for something that was made in a workshop using tools dating from the days of Alexander the Great, and subject to a hundred-odd years of hard work! Go on girl! ![]() Last edited by RDGAC; 10th August 2010 at 08:43 PM. |
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#3 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
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Screw-in breechplugs are not the norm on many Oriental barrels. Usually, the plug is installed as you suggested: it's a shrink-fit, and occasionally a cross-pin is driven through a hole on one side to be sure it stays put. Of course, removing a plug of this type is something you don't even want to think about. I've wondered why the threaded plugs which are almost universal in the West were never popular in many regions. My research indicates that in most of the Far East and SE Asia, the screw is a foreign concept. Although the Chinese, Tibetans, and Sumatrans made twist-forged gun barrels, the use of spiral-thread fasteners was introduced from abroad. Even when they had imported products as models, the Japanese and Malays simply abhorred the thought of cutting threads so as a consequence, their gun locks are all assembled with mortises and pins, and thus are typically made of brass which is easy to work. Even in the Near East, which knew the Archimedian screw from antiquity, threaded breechplugs were not universal and it's remarkable to note that even on the better Turkish and Persian gun locks, the quality of thread-cutting leaves a lot to be desired, at least by French and English standards from the 17th cent. onward.
It's interesting to note that many barrels from Asia also lack the tang attached to the plug, which on Western guns also has a hole which houses a vertical screw that pins the breech end of the barrel firmly in its channel. Traditionally, many Oriental barrels have a small square tenon emerging from the breechplug which fits in a corresponding mortise in the rear of the barrel channel in the stock. The marked taper of the barrel, and the tightness of the capucines (or, cross-pins through the fore-end in the Japanese design), keep the barrel from sliding forward in the channel. In many cases, there isn't even a tenon since the projecting priming-pan serves quite well to lock the breech firmly to the stock. In cultures whose traditional technology was heavily influenced by Europe (Ottoman Empire, parts of India, and Vietnam), tanged breechplugs do appear from the 18th cent. onwards. Last edited by Philip; 11th August 2010 at 07:58 AM. |
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#4 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
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A great book to have is Ronald Lister's ANTIQUE FIREARMS: THEIR CARE, REPAIR, AND RESTORATION (NY: Crown Publishers 1963). There's nothing quite like it and it's a godsend. Unfortunately I don't think it's been reprinted. The author is British so copies may be more common, in the antiquarian book market, in the UK.
Based on info in the book, here's a suggestion on extracting that stuck copper brush. Find a long thin-walled metal tube just smaller than the bore, and of sufficient length to reach the obstruction and still allow a hand grip. Drill a transverse hole in one end, enough for a short metal rod to serve as a turning- and pulling-handle. On the business end, file four V-shaped notches on the periphery of the tube. Then make four small L-shaped cuts with a wire-saw or similar device at the bottom of each V. If you push the rod into the barrel and engage the bristles of the brush in the saw-kerfs in the tube, you might get enough of a grip on the thing as you slowly rotate and gently pull on the tube. Now, on to the malfunctioning lock. What you have is severe wear on the tumbler notches and the sear nose. The full-cock notch needs to be carefully filed so that it has a square "step", not the rounded hump that's there now. The sear nose must also be shaped to mate with this indent precisely (carefully note the position of the two components when the lock is in a full cock position, to guide you in making the angles in the detent and on the nose just so.). The half-cock notch needs to be undercut slightly to allow the sear nose to lock into it. (there is a diagram on p. 150 of Lister's book). If the hammer catches on the half cock detent as it falls, it means that the radius of the tumbler is worn out-of-true. Try and correct the sear nose and the full cock detent first, then work on the half-cock. By restoring the full undercut in the half-cock detent, you'll be filing the radius of the tumbler a bit smaller in the area between full and half cock (i.e., setting the radius closer to the axis-pin.) You can then dress down the radius below the half cock, reducing the diameter of the tumbler at that point (but not so far so as to compromise the undercut). This adjustment of the radius is usually enough to cure the "half cock grab" syndrome. You might also want to be sure that the mainspring and tumbler move with out undue friction against the lockplate, or against the tumbler bridle. Minimize friction and the lock becomes "faster" and that helps prevent half-cock grab, too. |
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#5 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: York, UK
Posts: 167
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Philip, thank you very much indeed for that useful information, in particular for putting me on to Lister's book; surprisingly it seems it's relatively easy to get hold of a copy (I'm looking at one going for ten quid, used) and I have no doubt that it shall serve me well.
Regarding the tool you suggest, I'm not really very well equipped, and nor is work; we don't actually own a vice (nowhere to put it even if we had one; our behind-the-scenes areas are based in a three-story Georgian townhouse) and I've been pondering whether a small G-cramp would be strong enough to hold the mainspring in place, to allow me to remove the tumbler. Having buggered up the barrel I'm in no rush to do the same to the lock. In any event, I think I can probably manage to scrounge up the materials you suggest; a small hacksaw and the like will doubtless not be expensive, allowing me to cut the way you suggest. Whether I can do it well enough to make it work is another matter, but I did buy this guy intending to learn about working on flintlocks, so I guess I'll have to learn by my mistakes. A thought occurred to me last night, too: would a long, hollow metal tube with a sharpened end be useful? My theory was that a good steel cutting cylinder might allow me to cut the copper strands and/or the fouling (or whatever it is, which was definitely starting to give under repeated jabbing with my auger), and permit the whole lot to drop out of the muzzle. Regarding the lock. If a G-cramp is strong enough to hold the mainspring in the right position, what of the sear return spring (is this the correct term?) and the frizzen/pan lid spring? I'm not eager to do this and then find I can't get the bloody sear or frizzen back on the lockplate; speaking of which, I'm fairly confident that the cock is rotating pretty freely. There's a good, wide clearance between the two, and the cock certainly moves smoothly when the trigger is pulled, despite snagging on the half-cock notch. Incidentally, it's good to see that I have a well-worn lock; it makes me very happy to know that this old beast has seen some serious use! Edit: A thought that occurred to me over lunch is that the threads on this lock are, by and large, adequate at best. Indeed, as mentioned, the fore screw of the lockplate is dire, with the thread barely cut into its end, giving it very little purchase on the lock itself. Interestingly, however, the tang on this barrel is threaded into a small hole just above the plug, and seems to have been made fairly well (it certainly holds together, when suitably tightened); a later addition, perhaps. I'd suggest, as an explanation, that perhaps cutting the large, deep threads necessary for a threaded breech plug, with sufficient consistency in quality to form a reliable gas seal, was beyond the ability of most local metalworkers, if the evidence of their smaller screws is anything to go by. Indeed, the tang screw on this jezail is square in section for most of its length, and none too straight at that. Last edited by RDGAC; 11th August 2010 at 02:20 PM. |
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#6 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: York, UK
Posts: 167
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Herewith some photographs of the lock, courtesy the incredibly dimwitted works camera and a lot of patience. I've been test-firing the lock a couple of times, and discovered a couple of points:
1) Having removed, oiled and partly cleaned the cock, it moves smoothly and with a minimum of friction, so far as I can feel. 2) The half-cock notch appears to be both corroded and clogged with god-alone-knows what, but removal of some of this with a small steel pick has not improved results; the sear still grabs the half-cock, and halts the firing movement unless the trigger is kept depressed. 3) If the trigger is depressed, the gun will snap to half-cock and then discharge from there, albeit very quickly - the cock scarcely has time to slow down, but there are two distinct, audible clicks as the sear first releases from the full-cock position and then catches the half-cock notch, so far as I can tell. No doubt I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, but I hope that the photos show the asymmetrical wear on the tip of the sear itself and the very heavy wear on both the half and full-cock notches. I'm also concerned that the toe of the mainspring is barely being held in place by the tumbler in the "fired" position, which may explain why bringing the gun to the half-cock takes a surprisingly strong pull; certainly much more than the works percussion jezail's lock, which may of course be rather later and is now in better nick. Edit: And, as promised and somewhat late, the pictures. In order: 1) Lock in full-cock position. 2) Lock in full-cock position, from bottom left and showing wear to notches and sear. 3) As #2 but from bottom of lock. 4) Lock in half-cock position. 5) Lock in fired position. 6) Lock overhead view, showing clearance between cock and plate, fired position. Last edited by RDGAC; 12th August 2010 at 09:39 AM. Reason: Typos yet again |
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#7 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,193
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Congratulations on this outstanding piece of history.....which is clearly every bit as rugged as the Khyber regions from which it came!!! This is all the better as it obviously has stories to tell.
Its fascinating watching you going through the disassembly and working on the restoration, and as a complete novice at guns, the information provided by Philip, is pretty amazing in the detail......this is probably why I know so little on guns!! way complicated, and me with zero mechanical skill. What I do have is my ever present curiosity on markings, and this old balemark is amazing. The old heart topped by a 4 was the old East India Company 'balemark' , which was a merchants mark used to identify goods. These were typically placed on the locks of guns as well. What is interesting is that the typical EIC balemark seen has the heart quartered, with the initials VEIC in the quarters (United East India Company, the V is seen as a U). The configuration seen within the heart on this is the much older EIC balemark, interestingly applied with other than EIC initials. The 'I' character is not only applied flanking the 4 within, but in a five place sequence on the lock where 'TOWER' would have been. The 4 was a key element of merchants balemarks as it was an often used cabbalistic symbol appealing for protection and good fortune and as such on the marks hoped for the best as materials were transported. The individuality of the markings and initials in them of course were identifiers. What this signifies to me is that this lock was either faithfully reproduced by a native locksmith, interpolating symbols or characters that were known to him in interpeting the old markings seen on other early locks. As we have discussed, such markings were often seen by natives in thier own talismanic perspective, and as such must have been imitated with some of thier own application. Since this early form of balemark was from around mid to somewhat later 18th century, it sets the mind to wonder just how long this old flintlock was around. I think there is far more to the story of this old 'camel gun' than we yet realize, and need to think more on it as this intrepid restoration continues. Well done RDG!!!!! ![]() All the best, Jim |
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#8 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
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You might be able to snag it if you use a woven wire 'noose', like a snare. Use a long wire (and a torch of course to guide it) to push it onto the end or the metal body of the wire brush and hold it in place while you pull it tight, then either pull or twist using a handle until you get movement. I'd try a few different ones made from unbreakable lines like woven wire or nylon starter cord. |
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#9 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,193
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I just wanted to add my 'concurrent thread'
![]() As I previously noted in my last episode, these markings appear to be based on the earlier flaunched version of the EIC balemark. The two key characters selected to place within these markings are the 'I' and the '4', and where the TOWER mark would have been, the I is placed in a sequence of 5, in the same curvature and configuration. I would suggest that the prototype for this lock's markings may well have been from an earlier East India Company gun from regions to the south in Sind, where the Company was well present after the mid 1750s after securing diplomatic relations with Talpoor. The East India Company heart shape marking in variation seems to have prevailed into the mid 19th century with the Scinde Dawk stamp, however weapons by this time were being marked with the rampant lion. It seems quite feasible that flintlocks with the old flauched heart balemark ended up to the north in Khyber regions, and were probably remounted numerous times as well as copied by local gunsmiths. The gunsmiths of Darra Khel are world renowned for thier work at fashioning modern style guns with only the basest tools and technology. This type flintlock was probably done sometime in the early 19th century by a local artisan in Khyber regions. Like Rick, I cannot stop thinking of Kipling's quintessant words, 'ten rupee jezail' ! Beautiful !!! History in your hands RDG. All the best, Jim |
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#10 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: York, UK
Posts: 167
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Aha - I did wonder when Jim would smell interesting local markings
![]() Now, as to the age of the lock, it does rather set the mind wondering, but here we come up against another question: although this duplicates a style of lockplate decoration seen in the mid-to-late 18th Century, at what point did the Khyber gunsmiths acquire the skill of making the flintlock? In fact, another question must be asked: am I wrong in thinking that the reason many jezails made during the 18th and 19th Centuries used a captured British flintlock was that its mechanical complexity (or some other aspect of the design) taxed local gunsmiths beyond their means, for some time? My my, mystery upon mystery... Thanks for the suggestion, Atlantia - I can probably acquire some wire cheaply enough, but you mention using a torch to guide it. I'd be most interested to find a torch that would allow me to see all the way down the barrel of my gun, since I'm presently finding it impossible with an ordinary hand torch, but don't know what exists for this purpose; some sort of fibre-optic bore light perhaps. Do enlighten me as to what I might be able to get in this field |
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#11 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
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LOL, hmmm yeah it is problematic.... prehaps a single LED on a wire? Actually, thinking about it, have you tried getting a thick steel coathanger and straightening it out and bending a tiny hook (like 5mm) on the end, then attaching it to a rod for length and seeing if you can hook it round the obstruction and pull it out? |
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#12 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 1,036
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Bravo, I think you've come up with a potentially workable solution to that stuck brush: cut the bristles with the sharpened edge of a metal tube! The copper wires aren't very thick, after all. How about filing the end of the tube into saw teeth, get them as sharp as you can. It'll be a variation on the "crown-saw" that locksmiths use to bore holes in doors to install doorknob kits (or what surgeons use to drill holes in our heads to get at the gray matter inside, haha!). Lemme know how it works!
Now, I don't recommend using C-clamps to compress those V-shaped springs. The clamps are just too unstable on such surfaces, the main- and frizzen springs are pretty powerful. I suggest that you buy a mainspring vise, available through suppliers of gunsmith tools and those firms selling supplies to shooters of black-powder replica firearms. These handy and inexpensive devices are articulated to fit just about any size of flint or percussion mainsprings and frizzen springs (they will do also on wheellocks, but won't work on the huge external mainsprings of Spanish or Near Eastern "miquelet" locks due to their size and the way they're mounted, but the average collector has little need to disassemble those locks). The small sear spring can be restrained with a pair of needle nosed pliers. Just pinch the spring enough (use tape on the plier jaws) to relieve pressure as you back the screw out just enough to allow the spring to rotate free, then release and continue unscrewing. |
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