A Unique Double Barrel Bronze Tiller Haquebut, North Germany, ca. 1420

Matchlock · 4th August 2010, 08:30 PM

Now I can see what marks you meant and attach the pics. As far as I could gather from the heap of images there are at least two different marks. Based on the fact that I date the Mörkö gun to ca. 1430, they could be either High Gothic housemarks carrying a certain symbol, owner's or maker's marks (they are chiseled, not casted) or may have apotropaic (warding off evil) function quite common of those superstitious times; the bearded head in high relief on the Mörkö gun, in all proboability, served the same purpose. On the other hand, the mark with the M shaped base could also be a simple way of early numbering - cf. the numbering on the hook of my huge Nuremberg bronze Doppelhaken - , and it may as well represent the stylized tree of life. The other mark, in the shape of an arrow, might be a workshop mark denoting that that worksphop had formerly manufactured arrow heads.

Just to demonstrate how dangerous any statement on that early field may be, I must correct myself for saying that marks on guns and related arts and crafts generally do not appear before the beginning of the 15th century. Let me just mention the marks and inscriptions on sword blades, or the little arrowhead mark on my small Aljubarrota barrel of ca. 1360-80.

Best,
Michael

Lee · 16th August 2010, 05:00 PM

This page has been edited in compliance with a Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) takedown notice with removal of the allegedly infringing photographs; the previous two posts refer in part to images no longer remaining in the thread.

Matchlock · 19th August 2010, 08:52 PM

What I pity, Lee,

to range the owner's alledged 'photo rights' above my academically correct and righteous quotation and crediting that guy for the linked and borrowed images.

It was nothing more than the commonly accepted quoting from a printed source and simultaneously crediting the author. Taking such a step against Owen and me makes almost any academic references, any sharing and studying together literally senseless. Our work for the community could be killed by a dash any time.

Bowing down before such 'claims' I feel is an extreme personal affront against me and my hundreds of hours spent for and thousands of 'personal' images shared with you all; I had taken them by myself in hundreds of museums and collections all over Europe, which voyages cost me not 800 but many thousands of euro.

fernando · 20th August 2010, 09:40 AM

Thread locked until further notice.

fernando · 20th August 2010, 08:15 PM

Thread reopened.

Lee · 20th August 2010, 11:22 PM

Please forgive as I briefly interrupt this thread with something off-topic, but possibly of legitimate interest to a membership that have come to expect archive integrity. In brief, about a month ago a new member of our forum, who is also a member on another forum, did something many all of us have all done at one time or another and that was to place a link to images of the Morko gun located on a photo album site which had been shared in the other forums community. There must have been some issue with the link and in subsequent replies several other members assisted in trying to access the pictures and several of the pictures from this album were ultimately included in this thread. These pictures did, in fact, further consideration of this artifact and led to some insightful comments from a most experienced and knowledgeable connoisseur of such artifacts on our forum. I suspect the typical Internet user would, so far, regard this as not unusual and indeed feel this is exactly what forums such as this exist on the internet to facilitate.

Then about a week ago the fecal material fell into the ventilator...

One component of US copyright law is the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). There is much to despise in this law (which I personally view as excellent evidence of exactly whose benefit our Congress is concerned with), but there are some practical aspects of the law where the public's interests happen to be consistent with the media companies' interests.

Relevant to forums such as these, the law provides a 'safe harbor' for Internet Service Providers, such as whoever you buy your Internet access through, as well as for sites such as youtube, facebook and the forum communities you visit. Millions upon millions of posts and 'uploads' of all sorts are made every day and a significant number of these include 'borrowed material.' The law actually recognizes that it would be impractical for all postings and uploads to require individual investigation and moderation, so, the law has a provision for copyright holders to serve a 'takedown notice' to site operators by identifying infringing material. It is more complicated, of course, but the copyright holder cannot sue the ISP or site operator for infringement provided that infringing material is removed within a reasonable time frame and there is a policy in place to ban repeat offenders.

There are some links on our rules page concerning copyright law and the doctrine of fair use which may provide useful details about the fuzzy line between fair use and infringement. I believe, at least within the US jurisdiction, that it is a myth that attribution and proper citation of a source constitute any automatic license for the use of material. A case could be made that every time a photo is lifted and placed, that an infringement has occurred, but it not at all that simple. In real world practice, particularly with the sort of material this site deals with, I believe the reality is that 99.99% of the time the copyright owner either does not care about or cannot be bothered to police infringements or is satisfied by decent and proper attribution.

There does remain, however, the occasional situation where a copyright holder chooses to enforce their legal rights and makes a takedown notification to a hosting site. This is the second or third time this has happened to our forum in over a decade of operation. The copyright holder and a licensee thereof's positions may be found in this thread on the other forum. Please realize that my linking to that thread should not imply that I concur with some of the content or characterizations contained ... and do brace for an advertising assault.

If you think we have a problem, consider this EFF advice page for persons whose videos are removed from youtube. Please refrain from turning this thread into a discussion on copyright compliance.

Lee · 20th August 2010, 11:47 PM

I understand there was a total of three threads involving the Morko gun over on the Graybeard Outdoors Blackpowder Mortar and Cannon forum; I have located two of them:

Morko in all his glory!

Forum road kill - Morko translation project

4th August 2010, 08:30 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Now I can see what marks you meant and attach the pics. As far as I could gather from the heap of images there are at least two different marks. Based on the fact that I date the Mörkö gun to ca. 1430, they could be either High Gothic housemarks carrying a certain symbol, owner's or maker's marks (they are chiseled, not casted) or may have apotropaic (warding off evil) function quite common of those superstitious times; the bearded head in high relief on the Mörkö gun, in all proboability, served the same purpose. On the other hand, the mark with the M shaped base could also be a simple way of early numbering - cf. the numbering on the hook of my huge Nuremberg bronze Doppelhaken - , and it may as well represent the stylized tree of life. The other mark, in the shape of an arrow, might be a workshop mark denoting that that worksphop had formerly manufactured arrow heads. Just to demonstrate how dangerous any statement on that early field may be, I must correct myself for saying that marks on guns and related arts and crafts generally do not appear before the beginning of the 15th century. Let me just mention the marks and inscriptions on sword blades, or the little arrowhead mark on my small Aljubarrota barrel of ca. 1360-80. Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 4th August 2010 at 08:46 PM.

16th August 2010, 05:00 PM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Thread has been edited in compliance with a DMCA takedown notice This page has been edited in compliance with a Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) takedown notice with removal of the allegedly infringing photographs; the previous two posts refer in part to images no longer remaining in the thread.

19th August 2010, 08:52 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	What I pity, Lee, to range the owner's alledged 'photo rights' above my academically correct and righteous quotation and crediting that guy for the linked and borrowed images. It was nothing more than the commonly accepted quoting from a printed source and simultaneously crediting the author. Taking such a step against Owen and me makes almost any academic references, any sharing and studying together literally senseless. Our work for the community could be killed by a dash any time. Bowing down before such 'claims' I feel is an extreme personal affront against me and my hundreds of hours spent for and thousands of 'personal' images shared with you all; I had taken them by myself in hundreds of museums and collections all over Europe, which voyages cost me not 800 but many thousands of euro. Last edited by fernando; 20th August 2010 at 07:57 PM.

20th August 2010, 09:40 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thread locked until further notice. Last edited by fernando; 20th August 2010 at 09:57 AM.

20th August 2010, 11:22 PM	#6
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Sometimes you do what you have to do and are soiled in the process Please forgive as I briefly interrupt this thread with something off-topic, but possibly of legitimate interest to a membership that have come to expect archive integrity. In brief, about a month ago a new member of our forum, who is also a member on another forum, did something many all of us have all done at one time or another and that was to place a link to images of the Morko gun located on a photo album site which had been shared in the other forums community. There must have been some issue with the link and in subsequent replies several other members assisted in trying to access the pictures and several of the pictures from this album were ultimately included in this thread. These pictures did, in fact, further consideration of this artifact and led to some insightful comments from a most experienced and knowledgeable connoisseur of such artifacts on our forum. I suspect the typical Internet user would, so far, regard this as not unusual and indeed feel this is exactly what forums such as this exist on the internet to facilitate. Then about a week ago the fecal material fell into the ventilator... One component of US copyright law is the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). There is much to despise in this law (which I personally view as excellent evidence of exactly whose benefit our Congress is concerned with), but there are some practical aspects of the law where the public's interests happen to be consistent with the media companies' interests. Relevant to forums such as these, the law provides a 'safe harbor' for Internet Service Providers, such as whoever you buy your Internet access through, as well as for sites such as youtube, facebook and the forum communities you visit. Millions upon millions of posts and 'uploads' of all sorts are made every day and a significant number of these include 'borrowed material.' The law actually recognizes that it would be impractical for all postings and uploads to require individual investigation and moderation, so, the law has a provision for copyright holders to serve a 'takedown notice' to site operators by identifying infringing material. It is more complicated, of course, but the copyright holder cannot sue the ISP or site operator for infringement provided that infringing material is removed within a reasonable time frame and there is a policy in place to ban repeat offenders. There are some links on our rules page concerning copyright law and the doctrine of fair use which may provide useful details about the fuzzy line between fair use and infringement. I believe, at least within the US jurisdiction, that it is a myth that attribution and proper citation of a source constitute any automatic license for the use of material. A case could be made that every time a photo is lifted and placed, that an infringement has occurred, but it not at all that simple. In real world practice, particularly with the sort of material this site deals with, I believe the reality is that 99.99% of the time the copyright owner either does not care about or cannot be bothered to police infringements or is satisfied by decent and proper attribution. There does remain, however, the occasional situation where a copyright holder chooses to enforce their legal rights and makes a takedown notification to a hosting site. This is the second or third time this has happened to our forum in over a decade of operation. The copyright holder and a licensee thereof's positions may be found in this thread on the other forum. Please realize that my linking to that thread should not imply that I concur with some of the content or characterizations contained ... and do brace for an advertising assault. If you think we have a problem, consider this EFF advice page for persons whose videos are removed from youtube. Please refrain from turning this thread into a discussion on copyright compliance.

20th August 2010, 08:15 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thread reopened.

20th August 2010, 11:47 PM	#7
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	And if you want to see the pictures... I understand there was a total of three threads involving the Morko gun over on the Graybeard Outdoors Blackpowder Mortar and Cannon forum; I have located two of them: Morko in all his glory! Forum road kill - Morko translation project