A blade for coments; old, early, or very early

fernando · 1st August 2010, 07:33 PM

Thanks for the kind words, Captain Mark

.
Concerning the blade curve ...
I wouldn't have the necessary scholar background to use this as an actual reference, but i have been browsing on the famous Iberian Falcata, a sword used between V and I century BC, resembling the Etruscan Machaira called Kopis, or even the Nepalese Kukri, which has the blade 'belly' towards the tip, although in another shape context.
There is also a contemporaneous shorter version of the falcata, called Faca Afalcatada ... sort of "falcatized knife", also with the same blade swell.
Obviously the hilts of the falcata pattern have nothing to do with that of this knife. This is only to note that the curve in the blade front is not totally uncommon, while wondering if one descends from the other.
I assume i am far from being able to even try and attribute the origin of this dagger to one of the numerous peoples that have sequently inhabited these areas.
While Iberians were first around, with their falcatas, they tended to settle more to thre south and east from the settlement where this dagger was found, but falcatas were quite spread and some specimens were found not far from there.
However the Celts, who originated the Gaelic tribes, have surely inhabited this place. This could explain the tang pommel shape, as suggested by Matchlock.
Later this settlement, as many oters, was romanized, having the Romans fortified it with a triple wall.
One thing also taken for granted was the later occupation by the Germanic Visigods in this settlement, acording to their technique being noted in some ceramic findings, so i have read. These have replaced the Roman domination, having controlled Hispania between 418 and 711, date of the Muslim invasion.
Note that Hispania was the name given by the Romans to the whole Peninsula, Portugal included.
In my limited knowledge, i wouldn't know of Roman knives or daggers with a curved blade. Also apparently the way the tang is locked by a button doesn't appear to be Roman, but rather a Celtic detail, as per Michl's impression supported by Lee.
So assuming this kinfe/dagger falls into this time span and without evidence of a documented smilar pecimen, we may as weel take a pick

.

Fernando

.

Dmitry · 2nd August 2010, 04:28 AM

Search the web for 'SEAX' or 'SCRAMASAX'.

fernando · 2nd August 2010, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Search the web for 'SEAX' or 'SCRAMASAX'.

Thanks for the hint.
That was the suggestion i first received, before this discussion went in other directions.
I have then checked on quite a few examples; none of the shape variations i saw seem to fit with with this blade, tang and all.

Dmitry · 2nd August 2010, 04:38 PM

My knowledge of these knives is cursory, but I would view the tang as a secondary characteristic. These knives were used from Norway to Italy, and from Russia to Spain; obviously there are many variations.

Dmitry · 3rd August 2010, 12:31 AM

Was browsing MAURICE MAINDRON - LES ARMES, pondering how bad my French really was, when I saw this seax. Looks quite similar to yours.

fernando · 3rd August 2010, 03:32 PM

Very interesting Dmitry ... thank you.
Amazingly and for the first time i see a similar tang and pommel, but the blade projection doesn't seem to belong to the same family ... to my eyes.
I find the book itself very interesting, also.
Have just ordered a copy.
Thanks again for your interest.

Bryan.H · 6th August 2010, 07:28 PM

Greetings Fernando,

The blade shape and profile reminded me of a blade I'd seen some time ago, but a modern military knife. I can't help thinking that the blade shape may be historically featured on the Iberian peninsula and be a traditional shape very specific to a particular area. Aitor hunting knives have a stylistically similar blade shape also.

Here's the Spanish military knife I recalled..

Sorry I can't help further, just thinking out loud!

1st August 2010, 07:33 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks for the kind words, Captain Mark . Concerning the blade curve ... I wouldn't have the necessary scholar background to use this as an actual reference, but i have been browsing on the famous Iberian Falcata, a sword used between V and I century BC, resembling the Etruscan Machaira called Kopis, or even the Nepalese Kukri, which has the blade 'belly' towards the tip, although in another shape context. There is also a contemporaneous shorter version of the falcata, called Faca Afalcatada ... sort of "falcatized knife", also with the same blade swell. Obviously the hilts of the falcata pattern have nothing to do with that of this knife. This is only to note that the curve in the blade front is not totally uncommon, while wondering if one descends from the other. I assume i am far from being able to even try and attribute the origin of this dagger to one of the numerous peoples that have sequently inhabited these areas. While Iberians were first around, with their falcatas, they tended to settle more to thre south and east from the settlement where this dagger was found, but falcatas were quite spread and some specimens were found not far from there. However the Celts, who originated the Gaelic tribes, have surely inhabited this place. This could explain the tang pommel shape, as suggested by Matchlock. Later this settlement, as many oters, was romanized, having the Romans fortified it with a triple wall. One thing also taken for granted was the later occupation by the Germanic Visigods in this settlement, acording to their technique being noted in some ceramic findings, so i have read. These have replaced the Roman domination, having controlled Hispania between 418 and 711, date of the Muslim invasion. Note that Hispania was the name given by the Romans to the whole Peninsula, Portugal included. In my limited knowledge, i wouldn't know of Roman knives or daggers with a curved blade. Also apparently the way the tang is locked by a button doesn't appear to be Roman, but rather a Celtic detail, as per Michl's impression supported by Lee. So assuming this kinfe/dagger falls into this time span and without evidence of a documented smilar pecimen, we may as weel take a pick . Fernando . Attached Images

3rd August 2010, 12:31 AM	#5
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Was browsing MAURICE MAINDRON - LES ARMES, pondering how bad my French really was, when I saw this seax. Looks quite similar to yours. Attached Images

2nd August 2010, 04:28 AM	#2
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Search the web for 'SEAX' or 'SCRAMASAX'.

2nd August 2010, 04:38 PM	#4
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	My knowledge of these knives is cursory, but I would view the tang as a secondary characteristic. These knives were used from Norway to Italy, and from Russia to Spain; obviously there are many variations.

3rd August 2010, 03:32 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Very interesting Dmitry ... thank you. Amazingly and for the first time i see a similar tang and pommel, but the blade projection doesn't seem to belong to the same family ... to my eyes. I find the book itself very interesting, also. Have just ordered a copy. Thanks again for your interest.

6th August 2010, 07:28 PM	#7
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	Greetings Fernando, The blade shape and profile reminded me of a blade I'd seen some time ago, but a modern military knife. I can't help thinking that the blade shape may be historically featured on the Iberian peninsula and be a traditional shape very specific to a particular area. Aitor hunting knives have a stylistically similar blade shape also. Here's the Spanish military knife I recalled.. Sorry I can't help further, just thinking out loud!