Pesh Kabz or ?? Tks for help

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Henk

... but the tip is certainly for piercing armor. ...

Nah. not the same thing

-

[Dom]

Good Day
thanks a lot to every body for the collaboration
from my side I may add some comments
presently, I'm in Aleppo (Syria) and yesterday I met a Syrian friend, blacksmith, specialist in restoration of islamic blades, Rimon from Damascus for those knows him
- the item is a "composit"
1) blade is oldest than the grip, may be XVII or XVIIIth
2) the scabbard, looks XIXth
3) the blade is without contest "JOAR" not "acid etch"
4) the "tip" may be have been added century ago, but at evidence, not recently

the general impression is a weapon for "action" not for "display" and definitively not a "tourist trap"

today, we are on way to Damascus, may be some discovert ??
and to leave some knifes to be refurbished
and then we will reach Cairo - Egypt, in 4 or 5 days
where any one should visit us, are welcome, I will be their guide inside the souks

à +

Dom

[Lew]

Originally Posted by Dom

Good Day
thanks a lot to every body for the collaboration
from my side I may add some comments
presently, I'm in Aleppo (Syria) and yesterday I met a Syrian friend, blacksmith, specialist in restoration of islamic blades, Rimon from Damascus for those knows him
- the item is a "composit"
1) blade is oldest than the grip, may be XVII or XVIIIth
2) the scabbard, looks XIXth
3) the blade is without contest "JOAR" not "acid etch"
4) the "tip" may be have been added century ago, but at evidence, not recently

the general impression is a weapon for "action" not for "display" and definitively not a "tourist trap"
today, we are on way to Damascus, may be some discovert ??
and to leave some knifes to be refurbished
and then we will reach Cairo - Egypt, in 4 or 5 days
where any one should visit us, are welcome, I will be their guide inside the souks

à +

Dom

Dom

What does JOAR mean? I really do not think this is wootz and I not think this is laminated steel. Can you post a close up picture of the spine of the blade I am looking for signs of lamination along the back of the blade. Before I started collecting antiques I spent time at many Damascus steel forging seminars and this blade just does not look right to me?

[olikara]

Originally Posted by Lew

Dom

What does JOAR mean?

Lew,
I think Dom means 'Jauhar'.

Nidhi

[Lew]

Originally Posted by olikara

Lew,
I think Dom means 'Jauhar'.

Nidhi

Nidhi

Jauhar is described as this?

All over India, the earliest dated 510 ce. Women sometimes suffered immolation before their husbands’ expected death in battle, in which case the burning was called jauhar

[katana]

Hi Nidhi,
'Jauhar' seems to mean a form of ritual suicide......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jauhar

I think the spelling may be Jawhar....

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Picture caption on the left hand side


....Or possibly Johar....

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?p=681778

Regards David

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Lew

Dom

What does JOAR mean?

there is no fixed spelling in European letter fot transposition of Arabic word (writing) to European word
only the pronunciation of national alphabet make a difference
e.i. "Joar" in French should be writing ; Djouar
but we are not here to play with .. semantic
when it's pronounced in Arabic the sound is near to
- JO'AR -

it's not with me, but in Paris,
in the Saudi book concerning Islamic blades, very good explanation of "Joar" ... Djouar, "Jauar" "Jawhar"

arrived in Cairo today

à +

Dom

ps/ I get an other "Joar", but contemporary fabrication, purchased from a blacksmith (reputed) in Bukhara - Uzbekistan ... pics soon

[Tatyana Dianova]

Here is another kard from the same family. The handle is decorated with copper, messing, dark horn, walrus (?) ivory. The blade is pretty heavy and thick (6 mm). OAL 42 cm.
I have found the similar style dagger from the North Afghanistan in the collection of Kurt Gull (Hermann Rudolph "Der Turkmenenschmuck"). It is second from the top.
Dom, maybe you can read the cartouche?

[kai]

Hello Dom,

This is not wootz but I bet an etch will prove this to be several rows of twist core - nice catch, for sure!

With the Afghan/Usbek? attribution it would be not too surprising to see these more often during the last years, I guess...

Regards,
Kai

[ariel]

I checked a Russian book by V.N. Popenko " Cold Steel. Encyclopedic Dictionary" ( ugly translation, but as close to the original as I could, for the sake of precision)
Here is a picture of an identical one, illustrated as a typical example of a Turkmen one. Second from the top.
Hope it helps.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by kai

This is not wootz but I bet an etch will prove this to be several rows of twist core

Hi Kai

AN ETCH

this knife it's not an item of "Cour" either for parade or display,
not luxurious at all
it looks much more a weapon for honest warrior, no more

how spent time (and money) by etching ...
even the thickness of the blade (at back) ?? by engravings at the size of a hair

the pictures have been took with a "macro numeric function"
this increases wrongly the size of blade
the real dimensions are
46 cm overall
blade 29,50 cm only
without heel 8cm and 4,50cm for the tip
the blade is from 4,50cm to 3,50cm wide
and, from 0,50 cm to 0,30 cm thickness
your etches less than a 1/10mm

no offence, but your interesting suggestion seems a bit random, no?

with my best regards

à +

Dom

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova

Dom, maybe you can read the cartouche?

BIG BIG Thanks Tatyana, to have found an identification for my knife
unfortunately, the cartouche will remain (for me) illegible
it's too much damaged to read something

à +

Dom

[Henk]

Originally Posted by fernando

Nah. not the same thing

-

Fernando, it is not the same thing, but the tip has the same meaning.

[Gavin Nugent]

It is the thrird such hilt of this construction that I have seen in the last 12 months and all appeared to have very nice age to them. All were Kards with scabbards that enveloped the hilt. I am sure I have images on file of one because I wanted to buy it for my personal collections. One scabbard was basic timber and old leather and the one I wanted was a scabbard of unusual form in that it was silver with Niello script on the reverse, I will try to find it as perhaps the script will offer a better indication of origins.

Gav

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Henk

Fernando, it is not the same thing, but the tip has the same meaning.

Certainly Henk,
I meant efectiveness.
This one looks (to me) more like a decorative addition .

[Lew]

Here is something interesting concerning Joar.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Xgc...0steel&f=false

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Lew

Here is something interesting concerning Joar.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Xgc...0steel&f=false

I think Lew may have hit upon it .

If I'm seeing the blade correctly it looks as if the pattern material is laid on a steel core .

The pattern is way too random and complex to be a faked surface IMO .

[Henk]

Originally Posted by fernando

Certainly Henk,
I meant efectiveness.
This one looks (to me) more like a decorative addition .

Fernando,
You could be very right. As i mentioned before it isn't my field at all. I remembered seeing such tips before.