Could anybody help with Id of the sword ?

Battara · 31st July 2010, 01:38 AM

My thoughts too.......

Iain · 31st July 2010, 08:42 AM

Hi Martin,

First of all how do you find such things in Prague? :P The only stuff I ever see is beat up military sabres and fake katanas...

This sword I think is not from the Saharan regions. The decorative patterns and geometric shapes remind me very much of Poto or other Congolese area workmanship.

I would agree that the influences of the takouba form are fairly obvious but my best guess would be that this piece from the Congo or perhaps Cameroon?

I'd be interested in the views of those who collect the swords and knives of those areas as the decorative patterns really do remind me strongly of those pieces.

Martin Lubojacky · 31st July 2010, 11:42 AM

Thank you all. Because of the style of the hilt (leather strips) and dots on the crossguard I would also say it is comming from the arid region south of the Sahara (maybe north Cameroon, Chad). I think they did not use such leather strips for handes too much in equatorial regions. But the blade is really strange, and made of strange steel (it is not possible to polish it - it stays always grey or slightly dark, there are visible signs of folding)
(Dear ispn, there are cca 4 shops in Prague, where you can find such stuff, but only seldom, from time to time...)

fernando · 31st July 2010, 06:02 PM

Peculiar blade tip construction ... and with that brass dot

.

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2010, 08:34 PM

At first sight, what is most compelling visually is the distinct takouba like guard, but most puzzling, the fact that it is integrally forged. The mention of the dull gray characteristic of the steel I am wondering if that would be due to high zinc content?

I agree with the observations by ISPN and Martin, this sword has many features associated with tribal weapons from Zaire, and the elliptical features incorporated with the central raised rib in the blade resemble elements that appear in Ngombe weapons from Zaire (Beaute Fatale, p.77). The linear rocker style work that profiles the blade, resembles blade decoration features from Cameroon, as does the wrapped leatherwork, althought obviously the typical arched pommel is not present.

As often the case, a pastiche of influences from these regions in what may have been a court type weapon, probably from Zaire, and likely of latter 19th century. It would not be unreasonable to consider that the takouba was seen in certain degree in Zaire in the 19th century and later, and local artisans would have been influenced by the crossguard feature.

The interesting copper or gold metal filled dot situated in the symbolic ellipse near the blade point seems to perhaps derive from a gold or yellow copper nail hammered into higher quality Yemeni swords from ancient times. As with many, if not most African weapon forms, there is often deep traditional symbolism brought into them. The Arab influences that came into these areas along with the advent of Islam certainly accounts for many of these features, and it would be interesting to learn about this one, which I believe was mentioned in al-Kindi.

Tim Simmons · 31st July 2010, 09:41 PM

Very interesting thing, nice!

I can only think the same, that this is a version of tabouka at its most southerly? What a shame there is no scabbard. I have my doubts about Arab influence. If one thinks the tabouka has a west African origin then the inclusion of copper or brass is not exceptional in fact common even in western north Africa. I am no longer in the camp that believes these forms derive from the East with there largely imported kaskara blades. How many eastern blades in the context of the thread have additions of copper or brass dots or other, even from Arabia and India.

As far as this forum goes my guess would be not many.

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2010, 11:19 PM

Actually, I personally do not think this is a takouba, although it does have 'one' takouba like feature....an elongated rectangular crossguard, which does not suggest this is a takouba variant. It does suggest influence, which is one of the most fascinating, though sometimes almost maddening, features in many African weapons. While we often try to categorize these weapons into distinct typology or regional attrubution, it is of course speculation unless having well documented provenance.

While takoubas and kaskaras were in effect 'cousins' as far as being broadswords, as I have often noted, I think they are quite different in most cases....the takouba blades are typically lighter with rounded tip...the kaskara heavier with more of a spear point. I do not believe the takouba developed from the kaskara, nor vice versa, however, they do share common 'influences' that become noticeable in certain instances and examples.

The blade on this sword is produced entirely different from those of the takouba and kaskara, and the raised geometric designs at forte and blade tip are not seen on any takouba or kaskara blades I have ever seen. The integrally forged interpretation of a takouba like crossguard is different, and something I have not seen on takoubas personally. The flat disc pommel and wrapped leather grip does resemble work I have seen on some Mahdist period kaskaras..but then this type wrapping is known in Cameroon, and probably Chad as well.

Here I would emphasize trade routes that traversed these regions across the Sahara from times immemorial, and were well established and travelled.To imagine that weapons that travelled along these routes did not influence individuals including artisans in these areas is hardly thinkable. It is known that along with migratory or nomadic movements of tribes, those who were craftsmen and blacksmiths moved as well. The hybridization of weapons and all manner of culture were of course products of these influences.

The gold metal inlay which seems strategically placed within the also strategically raised geometric ellipse, seems to represent some type of symbolism or auspicious meaning. Since it is a singular spot placed in a key location, we can probably reason that it is more likely that than some randomly placed motif. What was meant in mentioning the Yemeni practice was simply a comparitive note, and use of such inlays are known in other cases of course......since there was profound Islamic presence throughout these regions, naturally it seemed feasible that this tradition or symbolism might be transcribed to a blade, even in Zaire.

The influences of Islam were thoroughly emplaced through the Sahara and Sahel, and even reached further into Central Africa. The key trade centers, especially Timbuktu in Mali, were also religious and cultural centers, and through them influences from points across Africa were carried constantly.

The possibility of the reason for the inlaid dot is of course unknown, but to discount the suggestion of other influence seems unfortunate, and since it is so obviously deliberately placed, it begs the question, then why is it there?

We know that copper dots are often seen in groupings, as in the jians of China with seven stars, they have been seen in India often in three dots, the mandau or parang ihlang of Borneo has numerous holes along the blade to be filled with gold metal. .....but admittedly these are placed for different reasons and none singly. We know that the early European smiths, the Franks, often used gold or copper inlay in thier blades in single marks, often a cross. These 'influences' are all too far removed for plausible consideration in this case, but what remains is the act of inlaying gold metal into a blade.

We have discussed through the years the very prevalent superstitions and beliefs associated with particular metals throughout the North African regions, and particularly iron or steel.......many Tuareg swords are of course covered in leather or brass, ostensibly to deter the effects of the metal in the sword on the owner. Perhaps such application, even with a single emphasized dot of the metal could have such a purpose?

It really is hard to say, but I do know I enjoy it very much when individuals here are willing to share thier thoughts and ideas, regardless of in disagreement or support. I see a question, look wherever I can to find what I can, and then write what I perceive from the information. When others do the same it is how we all learn, on these pages, and together.

Gavin Nugent · 3rd August 2010, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

How many eastern blades in the context of the thread have additions of copper or brass dots or other, even from Arabia and India.

As far as this forum goes my guess would be not many.

I for one have a very old Rhino hilted Jambiya with 6 brass plugs in the blade, three either side of the central ridge.

Gav

31st July 2010, 08:34 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	At first sight, what is most compelling visually is the distinct takouba like guard, but most puzzling, the fact that it is integrally forged. The mention of the dull gray characteristic of the steel I am wondering if that would be due to high zinc content? I agree with the observations by ISPN and Martin, this sword has many features associated with tribal weapons from Zaire, and the elliptical features incorporated with the central raised rib in the blade resemble elements that appear in Ngombe weapons from Zaire (Beaute Fatale, p.77). The linear rocker style work that profiles the blade, resembles blade decoration features from Cameroon, as does the wrapped leatherwork, althought obviously the typical arched pommel is not present. As often the case, a pastiche of influences from these regions in what may have been a court type weapon, probably from Zaire, and likely of latter 19th century. It would not be unreasonable to consider that the takouba was seen in certain degree in Zaire in the 19th century and later, and local artisans would have been influenced by the crossguard feature. The interesting copper or gold metal filled dot situated in the symbolic ellipse near the blade point seems to perhaps derive from a gold or yellow copper nail hammered into higher quality Yemeni swords from ancient times. As with many, if not most African weapon forms, there is often deep traditional symbolism brought into them. The Arab influences that came into these areas along with the advent of Islam certainly accounts for many of these features, and it would be interesting to learn about this one, which I believe was mentioned in al-Kindi. Attached Images

31st July 2010, 01:38 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	My thoughts too.......

31st July 2010, 08:42 AM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	Hi Martin, First of all how do you find such things in Prague? :P The only stuff I ever see is beat up military sabres and fake katanas... This sword I think is not from the Saharan regions. The decorative patterns and geometric shapes remind me very much of Poto or other Congolese area workmanship. I would agree that the influences of the takouba form are fairly obvious but my best guess would be that this piece from the Congo or perhaps Cameroon? I'd be interested in the views of those who collect the swords and knives of those areas as the decorative patterns really do remind me strongly of those pieces.

31st July 2010, 11:42 AM	#3
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	Thank you all. Because of the style of the hilt (leather strips) and dots on the crossguard I would also say it is comming from the arid region south of the Sahara (maybe north Cameroon, Chad). I think they did not use such leather strips for handes too much in equatorial regions. But the blade is really strange, and made of strange steel (it is not possible to polish it - it stays always grey or slightly dark, there are visible signs of folding) (Dear ispn, there are cca 4 shops in Prague, where you can find such stuff, but only seldom, from time to time...)

31st July 2010, 06:02 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Peculiar blade tip construction ... and with that brass dot .

31st July 2010, 09:41 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Very interesting thing, nice! I can only think the same, that this is a version of tabouka at its most southerly? What a shame there is no scabbard. I have my doubts about Arab influence. If one thinks the tabouka has a west African origin then the inclusion of copper or brass is not exceptional in fact common even in western north Africa. I am no longer in the camp that believes these forms derive from the East with there largely imported kaskara blades. How many eastern blades in the context of the thread have additions of copper or brass dots or other, even from Arabia and India. As far as this forum goes my guess would be not many.

31st July 2010, 11:19 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Actually, I personally do not think this is a takouba, although it does have 'one' takouba like feature....an elongated rectangular crossguard, which does not suggest this is a takouba variant. It does suggest influence, which is one of the most fascinating, though sometimes almost maddening, features in many African weapons. While we often try to categorize these weapons into distinct typology or regional attrubution, it is of course speculation unless having well documented provenance. While takoubas and kaskaras were in effect 'cousins' as far as being broadswords, as I have often noted, I think they are quite different in most cases....the takouba blades are typically lighter with rounded tip...the kaskara heavier with more of a spear point. I do not believe the takouba developed from the kaskara, nor vice versa, however, they do share common 'influences' that become noticeable in certain instances and examples. The blade on this sword is produced entirely different from those of the takouba and kaskara, and the raised geometric designs at forte and blade tip are not seen on any takouba or kaskara blades I have ever seen. The integrally forged interpretation of a takouba like crossguard is different, and something I have not seen on takoubas personally. The flat disc pommel and wrapped leather grip does resemble work I have seen on some Mahdist period kaskaras..but then this type wrapping is known in Cameroon, and probably Chad as well. Here I would emphasize trade routes that traversed these regions across the Sahara from times immemorial, and were well established and travelled.To imagine that weapons that travelled along these routes did not influence individuals including artisans in these areas is hardly thinkable. It is known that along with migratory or nomadic movements of tribes, those who were craftsmen and blacksmiths moved as well. The hybridization of weapons and all manner of culture were of course products of these influences. The gold metal inlay which seems strategically placed within the also strategically raised geometric ellipse, seems to represent some type of symbolism or auspicious meaning. Since it is a singular spot placed in a key location, we can probably reason that it is more likely that than some randomly placed motif. What was meant in mentioning the Yemeni practice was simply a comparitive note, and use of such inlays are known in other cases of course......since there was profound Islamic presence throughout these regions, naturally it seemed feasible that this tradition or symbolism might be transcribed to a blade, even in Zaire. The influences of Islam were thoroughly emplaced through the Sahara and Sahel, and even reached further into Central Africa. The key trade centers, especially Timbuktu in Mali, were also religious and cultural centers, and through them influences from points across Africa were carried constantly. The possibility of the reason for the inlaid dot is of course unknown, but to discount the suggestion of other influence seems unfortunate, and since it is so obviously deliberately placed, it begs the question, then why is it there? We know that copper dots are often seen in groupings, as in the jians of China with seven stars, they have been seen in India often in three dots, the mandau or parang ihlang of Borneo has numerous holes along the blade to be filled with gold metal. .....but admittedly these are placed for different reasons and none singly. We know that the early European smiths, the Franks, often used gold or copper inlay in thier blades in single marks, often a cross. These 'influences' are all too far removed for plausible consideration in this case, but what remains is the act of inlaying gold metal into a blade. We have discussed through the years the very prevalent superstitions and beliefs associated with particular metals throughout the North African regions, and particularly iron or steel.......many Tuareg swords are of course covered in leather or brass, ostensibly to deter the effects of the metal in the sword on the owner. Perhaps such application, even with a single emphasized dot of the metal could have such a purpose? It really is hard to say, but I do know I enjoy it very much when individuals here are willing to share thier thoughts and ideas, regardless of in disagreement or support. I see a question, look wherever I can to find what I can, and then write what I perceive from the information. When others do the same it is how we all learn, on these pages, and together.