Nimcha Questions

Rick · 10th June 2005, 03:08 PM

I was wondering about a repair at the corner of the knucklebow myself .

As for the term 'Sayf' , yes it definitely falls under that category but it is a broad one encompassing many sword types .

Re the knucklebow :
When I look at the examples in Tirri I see that they for the most part are at a 90 degree angle . This example of mine is a peened joint at the right angle .
The horizontal part (quillon) has been fashioned at its end into a round 'peg' (for want of a better word) . The bottom of the vertical piece has been drilled to accept the round end .

Now for the guesswork ; I think the peg was peened to swell it in the joint and then filed smooth . If it was a repair one would expect the quillon to be shortened ; rather it is the other way round and the knuckle bar leans into the pommell slightly . Possibly it started out life as a curved knucklebow .

Yes, this is one of the oldest blades I have and one of my ancestors quite possibly wielded such a blade (not hilt) during the French and Indian Wars .

There are some smallish patches of old bubbly , crusty rust on one side of the blade but I am of a mind to leave them alone for the sake of the overall patina .

Rivkin · 10th June 2005, 04:41 PM

As far as my knowladge of arabic goes, "saif" is an exact synonim of "sword", therefore refers to any sword.

Aqtai · 10th June 2005, 05:46 PM

As an Arabic speaker, I can confirm that, 'saif' (pronounced Seyf) simply means 'sword'. It is possibly derived from the Greek Xyphos. Very nice nimcha BTW.

tom hyle · 11th June 2005, 01:00 AM

Yes, but I don't think that's in-depth enough for clarity, because the word "sword" does not just mean any sword; it (sword, svert, and even espada, though I don't know how things come down on that being the same word), like saif is in actual usage often only used to refer to longswords. This practice still holds in N America (another American comment "Those aren't REAL swords...."). A "Viking" would not refer to his long sax as a svert. Likewise, AFAIK an Arab would not refer to, oh say, one of those xtra big sword-sized jambiyas as a sayf (?) Swords that are AFAIK known to their native users as saifs; Arabian saif per se; "nimcha"; the guardless Berber sabres; kaskara. Other shorter swords from the same regions and tribes are, AFAIK (?) not called sayf. I'm all in favor of a breadth for the word sword comparable to how it is used in translating from Japanese to English, but it did originally refer to a longsword.
Rick, the joint you describe is exactly the joint I saw on a French guard I owned, except it was in brass, and with two round tenons. It was also soldered, but had broken wide open when it came to me....the lone round tenon if not soldered too, seems particularly liable to become loose and swingy? Is the joint "keyed" or "locked" in any other way (ie by the in-side of the knucklebow being hollowed, and the end of the quillon curved or peaked to match? Just a random thought, that.

Aqtai · 11th June 2005, 12:15 PM

I'm afraid that sayf is not an indepth word, it's just a generic name for swords.

It could refer to any kind of sword be it a Kilij, shamshir, rapier or broadsword. I'm sure two hundred odd years ago, they would have had different names for individual types, but they are still all swords, or sayfs.

tom hyle · 11th June 2005, 12:46 PM

Yet all those examples you have just given are longswords. I ask again; would the term saif be applied by an Arab to a shorter Arab type, such as the giant jambiyas, or would a Berber so refer to flyssas?

Rick · 11th June 2005, 02:35 PM

No badgering the witness .

Not an arabic speaker but sometimes a large kanjar is just a large kanjar .

I would guess saif is a term used like the word automobile , a general term for personal transportation that burns gas has a body and four wheels be it a mini cooper or a deville .

Aqtai · 11th June 2005, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Yet all those examples you have just given are longswords. I ask again; would the term saif be applied by an Arab to a shorter Arab type, such as the giant jambiyas, or would a Berber so refer to flyssas?

A modern Arab would probably refer to shorter swords (as long as it is not obviously a dagger) as sayf. I can't answer as to what they would have said 100 years+ ago. I have a feeling that a non-military person would have still called a sword of any length a sayf.

11th June 2005, 12:15 PM	#5
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I'm afraid that sayf is not an indepth word, it's just a generic name for swords. It could refer to any kind of sword be it a Kilij, shamshir, rapier or broadsword. I'm sure two hundred odd years ago, they would have had different names for individual types, but they are still all swords, or sayfs. Last edited by Aqtai; 11th June 2005 at 11:01 PM.

10th June 2005, 03:08 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	I was wondering about a repair at the corner of the knucklebow myself . As for the term 'Sayf' , yes it definitely falls under that category but it is a broad one encompassing many sword types . Re the knucklebow : When I look at the examples in Tirri I see that they for the most part are at a 90 degree angle . This example of mine is a peened joint at the right angle . The horizontal part (quillon) has been fashioned at its end into a round 'peg' (for want of a better word) . The bottom of the vertical piece has been drilled to accept the round end . Now for the guesswork ; I think the peg was peened to swell it in the joint and then filed smooth . If it was a repair one would expect the quillon to be shortened ; rather it is the other way round and the knuckle bar leans into the pommell slightly . Possibly it started out life as a curved knucklebow . Yes, this is one of the oldest blades I have and one of my ancestors quite possibly wielded such a blade (not hilt) during the French and Indian Wars . There are some smallish patches of old bubbly , crusty rust on one side of the blade but I am of a mind to leave them alone for the sake of the overall patina .

10th June 2005, 04:41 PM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	As far as my knowladge of arabic goes, "saif" is an exact synonim of "sword", therefore refers to any sword.

10th June 2005, 05:46 PM	#3
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	As an Arabic speaker, I can confirm that, 'saif' (pronounced Seyf) simply means 'sword'. It is possibly derived from the Greek Xyphos. Very nice nimcha BTW.

11th June 2005, 01:00 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yes, but I don't think that's in-depth enough for clarity, because the word "sword" does not just mean any sword; it (sword, svert, and even espada, though I don't know how things come down on that being the same word), like saif is in actual usage often only used to refer to longswords. This practice still holds in N America (another American comment "Those aren't REAL swords...."). A "Viking" would not refer to his long sax as a svert. Likewise, AFAIK an Arab would not refer to, oh say, one of those xtra big sword-sized jambiyas as a sayf (?) Swords that are AFAIK known to their native users as saifs; Arabian saif per se; "nimcha"; the guardless Berber sabres; kaskara. Other shorter swords from the same regions and tribes are, AFAIK (?) not called sayf. I'm all in favor of a breadth for the word sword comparable to how it is used in translating from Japanese to English, but it did originally refer to a longsword. Rick, the joint you describe is exactly the joint I saw on a French guard I owned, except it was in brass, and with two round tenons. It was also soldered, but had broken wide open when it came to me....the lone round tenon if not soldered too, seems particularly liable to become loose and swingy? Is the joint "keyed" or "locked" in any other way (ie by the in-side of the knucklebow being hollowed, and the end of the quillon curved or peaked to match? Just a random thought, that.

11th June 2005, 12:46 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yet all those examples you have just given are longswords. I ask again; would the term saif be applied by an Arab to a shorter Arab type, such as the giant jambiyas, or would a Berber so refer to flyssas?

11th June 2005, 02:35 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	No badgering the witness . Not an arabic speaker but sometimes a large kanjar is just a large kanjar . I would guess saif is a term used like the word automobile , a general term for personal transportation that burns gas has a body and four wheels be it a mini cooper or a deville .