Need help with Chinese bronze sword

VANDOO · 29th July 2010, 09:54 PM

THE FIRST TIME I WENT INTO CHINA VIA MACAO IN 1982 AND THE SECOND TIME IN 1990 THERE WERE SHOPS EVERWHERE FULL OF GOODS THAT MAY HAVE BEEN THERE 100 YEARS OR MORE SEE TWO PICTURES OF SUCH A SHOP. MUCH OF THAT OLD STOCK HAS BEEN BOUGHT UP AND EXPORTED AND SOLD WITH STATE RED SEALS ON IT. I WILL PUT IN A FEW PICTURES OF SOME EXAMPLES I OWN. SOME HAD A VERY GOOD CRUSTY PATINA AND OTHERS DID NOT BUT THE COMMON THREAD WAS THAT THERE WERE MULTIPLE EXAMPLES OF EACH FORM TO BE FOUND IN MANY SHOPS. TWO PICTURES OF A CHINESE SWORD WITH A BRONZE HANDLE AND IRON BLADE SAID TO BE HAN DYNASTY. THE LESSON TO BE LEARNED IS THAT THE CHINESE HAVE BEEN MAKEING FAKES GOOD ENOUGH TO FOOL MOST CHINESE COLLECTORS FOR MANY GENERATIONS, SO THEY ARE VERY GOOD AT IT.

SEARCH IN THE OLD ARCHIVES 8/07/2001 POST "REPLICAS CURRENTLY IN VOUGE" BY VANDOO

VANDOO · 30th July 2010, 12:46 AM

A FEW MORE PICTURES OF EXAMPLES.FIRST PIC. BRONZE SWORD, #2 CHINESE BRONZE GILT SWORD (REPLICA) #3.& #4. CHINESE BRONZE AND SILVER (REPLICA) #5 CHINESE BRONZE SWORD. #6. " 2300 YEAR OLD CHINESE BRONZE SWORD" THAT WAS THE SELLERS DESCRIPTION. #7. SHANG DYNASTY BRONZE AX. #8. ZHOU DYNASTY BRONZE AX
WHICH ARE FAKE THAT I DID NOT PUT THE CAPTION REPLICA I WILL LEAVE TO YOU. SOME MAY BE THE ACTUAL ITEM. AT ANY RATE MOST ARE REPLICAS OF A REAL ANCIENT FORM NOT FANTASY ITEMS BUT I SUSPECT ONE IS PURE FANTASY.

TO COLLECT IN THIS FEILD YOU MUST BE VERY KNOWLEGABLE OR KNOW SOME HONEST DEALERS WHO HAVE THAT KNOWLEGE OTHERWISE THE ODDS ARE YOU WILL GET TAKEN. BUT IF THE PRICE IS REASONABLE AND YOU LIKE IT BUY IT ANYWAY AND ASSUME IT IS A REPLICA EVEN IF IT IS 100 YEARS OLD.

bvieira · 14th September 2020, 03:32 AM

What do you think of this one ?

mariusgmioc · 14th September 2020, 04:22 PM

I believe that good bronze fakes cannot be detected visually even by the most experienced people. For every experienced buyer there are 100 experienced fakers...

Even laboratory testing may prove to be quite difficult and yield debatable results in case of antique bronzes.

The market is practically flooded with exceptionally good fake bronze Luristan and Chinese blades.

In my opinion, the only certainty of a genuine blade is if it is known to be excavated from a known site, like most of the museum pieces are.

Peter Dekker · 14th September 2020, 06:27 PM

I agree with my countryman here.

Most stand out like a sore thumb by being completely off stylistically, but there is also a group of much better fakes. Of those, it is very hard to see, especially from pictures, and sometimes even in-hand.

This one looks fake, in terms of workmanship.

What you would want to do is study a good number of pieces with sound provenance. The Freer Gallery for example has some pieces with relatively early provenance, dating from before large scale copying began. (Or so we hope! People have always made fakes throughout the ages.)

What becomes apparent is that on the old ones, the geometry tends to be rather precise. These items were expensive, high-tech of the day.

Here's an example, purchased in 1924 and most likely dug up in Anhui: https://asia.si.edu/object/F1979.3/

Check the center ridgeline and how crisp and straight it is. Then look at this photo again. You tend to see this geometrical crispness on most well-provenanced Chinese bronzes, whatever the type of weapon or exact period.

Here is another: https://asia.si.edu/object/F1979.2/

So basically, if the geometry doesn't look impressive in the initiaul crispness and precision of execution, fat chance the piece is not very old.

And be warned, because this crispness is not that hard for a good faker to get right. So let it serve as a baseline, it should at least have that, to be real, but it is by no means a guarantee either.

I hope this helps.

-Peter

Tim Simmons · 14th September 2020, 07:23 PM

I'm faking it every day.

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2020, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bvieira

What do you think of this one ?

Thank you for reviving this old thread of a decade ago, which gave us a moment to remember our late friend Vandoo, and the other guys who were most active writers in those days, but have long since left here.

An interesting topic, which would have been great on its own thread as well, along with your own insights with your apparent interest in this topic. It is great to see the insights of Peter and Marius, who are well versed in this field, especially Peter who of course specializes in Chinese arms.
Thank you for posting this! Always learn from these posts!

29th July 2010, 09:54 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE FIRST TIME I WENT INTO CHINA VIA MACAO IN 1982 AND THE SECOND TIME IN 1990 THERE WERE SHOPS EVERWHERE FULL OF GOODS THAT MAY HAVE BEEN THERE 100 YEARS OR MORE SEE TWO PICTURES OF SUCH A SHOP. MUCH OF THAT OLD STOCK HAS BEEN BOUGHT UP AND EXPORTED AND SOLD WITH STATE RED SEALS ON IT. I WILL PUT IN A FEW PICTURES OF SOME EXAMPLES I OWN. SOME HAD A VERY GOOD CRUSTY PATINA AND OTHERS DID NOT BUT THE COMMON THREAD WAS THAT THERE WERE MULTIPLE EXAMPLES OF EACH FORM TO BE FOUND IN MANY SHOPS. TWO PICTURES OF A CHINESE SWORD WITH A BRONZE HANDLE AND IRON BLADE SAID TO BE HAN DYNASTY. THE LESSON TO BE LEARNED IS THAT THE CHINESE HAVE BEEN MAKEING FAKES GOOD ENOUGH TO FOOL MOST CHINESE COLLECTORS FOR MANY GENERATIONS, SO THEY ARE VERY GOOD AT IT. SEARCH IN THE OLD ARCHIVES 8/07/2001 POST "REPLICAS CURRENTLY IN VOUGE" BY VANDOO Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 30th July 2010 at 12:39 AM.

30th July 2010, 12:46 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A FEW MORE PICTURES OF EXAMPLES.FIRST PIC. BRONZE SWORD, #2 CHINESE BRONZE GILT SWORD (REPLICA) #3.& #4. CHINESE BRONZE AND SILVER (REPLICA) #5 CHINESE BRONZE SWORD. #6. " 2300 YEAR OLD CHINESE BRONZE SWORD" THAT WAS THE SELLERS DESCRIPTION. #7. SHANG DYNASTY BRONZE AX. #8. ZHOU DYNASTY BRONZE AX WHICH ARE FAKE THAT I DID NOT PUT THE CAPTION REPLICA I WILL LEAVE TO YOU. SOME MAY BE THE ACTUAL ITEM. AT ANY RATE MOST ARE REPLICAS OF A REAL ANCIENT FORM NOT FANTASY ITEMS BUT I SUSPECT ONE IS PURE FANTASY. TO COLLECT IN THIS FEILD YOU MUST BE VERY KNOWLEGABLE OR KNOW SOME HONEST DEALERS WHO HAVE THAT KNOWLEGE OTHERWISE THE ODDS ARE YOU WILL GET TAKEN. BUT IF THE PRICE IS REASONABLE AND YOU LIKE IT BUY IT ANYWAY AND ASSUME IT IS A REPLICA EVEN IF IT IS 100 YEARS OLD. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 30th July 2010 at 01:01 AM.

14th September 2020, 03:32 AM	#3
bvieira Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 108	What do you think of this one ? Attached Images

14th September 2020, 04:22 PM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,906	I believe that good bronze fakes cannot be detected visually even by the most experienced people. For every experienced buyer there are 100 experienced fakers... Even laboratory testing may prove to be quite difficult and yield debatable results in case of antique bronzes. The market is practically flooded with exceptionally good fake bronze Luristan and Chinese blades. In my opinion, the only certainty of a genuine blade is if it is known to be excavated from a known site, like most of the museum pieces are.

14th September 2020, 06:27 PM	#5
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 63	I agree with my countryman here. Most stand out like a sore thumb by being completely off stylistically, but there is also a group of much better fakes. Of those, it is very hard to see, especially from pictures, and sometimes even in-hand. This one looks fake, in terms of workmanship. What you would want to do is study a good number of pieces with sound provenance. The Freer Gallery for example has some pieces with relatively early provenance, dating from before large scale copying began. (Or so we hope! People have always made fakes throughout the ages.) What becomes apparent is that on the old ones, the geometry tends to be rather precise. These items were expensive, high-tech of the day. Here's an example, purchased in 1924 and most likely dug up in Anhui: https://asia.si.edu/object/F1979.3/ Check the center ridgeline and how crisp and straight it is. Then look at this photo again. You tend to see this geometrical crispness on most well-provenanced Chinese bronzes, whatever the type of weapon or exact period. Here is another: https://asia.si.edu/object/F1979.2/ So basically, if the geometry doesn't look impressive in the initiaul crispness and precision of execution, fat chance the piece is not very old. And be warned, because this crispness is not that hard for a good faker to get right. So let it serve as a baseline, it should at least have that, to be real, but it is by no means a guarantee either. I hope this helps. -Peter

14th September 2020, 07:23 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I'm faking it every day.