Nimcha Questions

VVV · 10th June 2005, 11:42 AM

Nice Nimcha Rick!

I don't know how your French is but there is a very good reference site at
http://blade.japet.com/N-introd.htm

What puzzles me is that in Tirri it is described as a "short sword"???
I don't understand this description considering the size of yours and the one I found 5 years ago in Marrakesh, which is also quite long, 42" with a 36" blade.
The Morrocan one in Stone has a blade of 32".

Anybody who can explain Tirri's statement or is it just a mistake that passed the proof reading unnoticed?

Michael

Rick · 10th June 2005, 02:18 PM

Thank you all !
Jim thank you for your invaluable and seemingly endless store of knowledge on almost any type of edged weapon .
These swords were actually popular in England ?!

Michael , as to the difference in lengths of various types of Nimchas I would guess that they came in two flavors . Landlubber and Pirate ; there would seem to be no way that one could succesfully wield one of these long straight swords with success on the crowded deck of a full rigged sailing ship .

Possibly the long examples are from the non piratical inland dwellers ; the length would be quite appropriate for a mounted warrior..

tom hyle · 10th June 2005, 02:28 PM

AFAIK it is a misunderstanding of some kind; someone may explain in detail. AFAIK nimcha translates short sword or small sword, and is not traditional to refer to these swords, which are called sayfs (sa'if, sa'yf, etc.). Due to some misunderstanding of old translation or something they have become known as nimchas in N America; a term that more likely actually refered to flyssas or large jambiyas? I think to some sort of sword deliberately small for use on ships?
Jim, great info; in a wild dream is it even possible then that the hilt and blade are contemporary to each other? Is the evolution of these hilts over time well known? I bet it is somewhere in Africa or Arabia, but is it known to any of us? (pictures?

) What's up with England and Mooroco? Maybe neither one liked or trusted Spain, eh? Was there a big alliance/trade relationship?
In any event, I'd be excited, too, Rick; every time I get my hands on a c17 blade I feel a special thrill, I'd say; it's about as old a steel blade as we get to handle, for me, anyway.....I've got one that's much smaller and in rough shape that I'm just soooo happy about......congratulations of jealousy and such...........What thoughts on the back-ward lean of the blade that makes it more sabre like in gestalt?
An European blade of this time will be folded steel.
The joint visible in the guard may be a repair (it is unusual; usually the bar of iron is just bent there; on the other hand, and worth mentioning, is that I've seen a joint somewhat like this on brass French hilts, and France and Mooroco are not real far apart; watch me ramble in panentheses

); it's possible the knuckle bow got more or less knocked off this piece at some point?

Rick · 10th June 2005, 03:08 PM

I was wondering about a repair at the corner of the knucklebow myself .

As for the term 'Sayf' , yes it definitely falls under that category but it is a broad one encompassing many sword types .

Re the knucklebow :
When I look at the examples in Tirri I see that they for the most part are at a 90 degree angle . This example of mine is a peened joint at the right angle .
The horizontal part (quillon) has been fashioned at its end into a round 'peg' (for want of a better word) . The bottom of the vertical piece has been drilled to accept the round end .

Now for the guesswork ; I think the peg was peened to swell it in the joint and then filed smooth . If it was a repair one would expect the quillon to be shortened ; rather it is the other way round and the knuckle bar leans into the pommell slightly . Possibly it started out life as a curved knucklebow .

Yes, this is one of the oldest blades I have and one of my ancestors quite possibly wielded such a blade (not hilt) during the French and Indian Wars .

There are some smallish patches of old bubbly , crusty rust on one side of the blade but I am of a mind to leave them alone for the sake of the overall patina .

Rivkin · 10th June 2005, 04:41 PM

As far as my knowladge of arabic goes, "saif" is an exact synonim of "sword", therefore refers to any sword.

Aqtai · 10th June 2005, 05:46 PM

As an Arabic speaker, I can confirm that, 'saif' (pronounced Seyf) simply means 'sword'. It is possibly derived from the Greek Xyphos. Very nice nimcha BTW.

tom hyle · 11th June 2005, 01:00 AM

Yes, but I don't think that's in-depth enough for clarity, because the word "sword" does not just mean any sword; it (sword, svert, and even espada, though I don't know how things come down on that being the same word), like saif is in actual usage often only used to refer to longswords. This practice still holds in N America (another American comment "Those aren't REAL swords...."). A "Viking" would not refer to his long sax as a svert. Likewise, AFAIK an Arab would not refer to, oh say, one of those xtra big sword-sized jambiyas as a sayf (?) Swords that are AFAIK known to their native users as saifs; Arabian saif per se; "nimcha"; the guardless Berber sabres; kaskara. Other shorter swords from the same regions and tribes are, AFAIK (?) not called sayf. I'm all in favor of a breadth for the word sword comparable to how it is used in translating from Japanese to English, but it did originally refer to a longsword.
Rick, the joint you describe is exactly the joint I saw on a French guard I owned, except it was in brass, and with two round tenons. It was also soldered, but had broken wide open when it came to me....the lone round tenon if not soldered too, seems particularly liable to become loose and swingy? Is the joint "keyed" or "locked" in any other way (ie by the in-side of the knucklebow being hollowed, and the end of the quillon curved or peaked to match? Just a random thought, that.

Aqtai · 11th June 2005, 12:15 PM

I'm afraid that sayf is not an indepth word, it's just a generic name for swords.

It could refer to any kind of sword be it a Kilij, shamshir, rapier or broadsword. I'm sure two hundred odd years ago, they would have had different names for individual types, but they are still all swords, or sayfs.

10th June 2005, 11:42 AM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Nice Nimcha Rick! I don't know how your French is but there is a very good reference site at http://blade.japet.com/N-introd.htm What puzzles me is that in Tirri it is described as a "short sword"??? I don't understand this description considering the size of yours and the one I found 5 years ago in Marrakesh, which is also quite long, 42" with a 36" blade. The Morrocan one in Stone has a blade of 32". Anybody who can explain Tirri's statement or is it just a mistake that passed the proof reading unnoticed? Michael Last edited by VVV; 10th June 2005 at 12:49 PM.

11th June 2005, 12:15 PM	#8
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I'm afraid that sayf is not an indepth word, it's just a generic name for swords. It could refer to any kind of sword be it a Kilij, shamshir, rapier or broadsword. I'm sure two hundred odd years ago, they would have had different names for individual types, but they are still all swords, or sayfs. Last edited by Aqtai; 11th June 2005 at 11:01 PM.

10th June 2005, 02:18 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Thank you all ! Jim thank you for your invaluable and seemingly endless store of knowledge on almost any type of edged weapon . These swords were actually popular in England ?! Michael , as to the difference in lengths of various types of Nimchas I would guess that they came in two flavors . Landlubber and Pirate ; there would seem to be no way that one could succesfully wield one of these long straight swords with success on the crowded deck of a full rigged sailing ship . Possibly the long examples are from the non piratical inland dwellers ; the length would be quite appropriate for a mounted warrior..

10th June 2005, 02:28 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	AFAIK it is a misunderstanding of some kind; someone may explain in detail. AFAIK nimcha translates short sword or small sword, and is not traditional to refer to these swords, which are called sayfs (sa'if, sa'yf, etc.). Due to some misunderstanding of old translation or something they have become known as nimchas in N America; a term that more likely actually refered to flyssas or large jambiyas? I think to some sort of sword deliberately small for use on ships? Jim, great info; in a wild dream is it even possible then that the hilt and blade are contemporary to each other? Is the evolution of these hilts over time well known? I bet it is somewhere in Africa or Arabia, but is it known to any of us? (pictures? ) What's up with England and Mooroco? Maybe neither one liked or trusted Spain, eh? Was there a big alliance/trade relationship? In any event, I'd be excited, too, Rick; every time I get my hands on a c17 blade I feel a special thrill, I'd say; it's about as old a steel blade as we get to handle, for me, anyway.....I've got one that's much smaller and in rough shape that I'm just soooo happy about......congratulations of jealousy and such...........What thoughts on the back-ward lean of the blade that makes it more sabre like in gestalt? An European blade of this time will be folded steel. The joint visible in the guard may be a repair (it is unusual; usually the bar of iron is just bent there; on the other hand, and worth mentioning, is that I've seen a joint somewhat like this on brass French hilts, and France and Mooroco are not real far apart; watch me ramble in panentheses ); it's possible the knuckle bow got more or less knocked off this piece at some point?

10th June 2005, 03:08 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I was wondering about a repair at the corner of the knucklebow myself . As for the term 'Sayf' , yes it definitely falls under that category but it is a broad one encompassing many sword types . Re the knucklebow : When I look at the examples in Tirri I see that they for the most part are at a 90 degree angle . This example of mine is a peened joint at the right angle . The horizontal part (quillon) has been fashioned at its end into a round 'peg' (for want of a better word) . The bottom of the vertical piece has been drilled to accept the round end . Now for the guesswork ; I think the peg was peened to swell it in the joint and then filed smooth . If it was a repair one would expect the quillon to be shortened ; rather it is the other way round and the knuckle bar leans into the pommell slightly . Possibly it started out life as a curved knucklebow . Yes, this is one of the oldest blades I have and one of my ancestors quite possibly wielded such a blade (not hilt) during the French and Indian Wars . There are some smallish patches of old bubbly , crusty rust on one side of the blade but I am of a mind to leave them alone for the sake of the overall patina .

10th June 2005, 04:41 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	As far as my knowladge of arabic goes, "saif" is an exact synonim of "sword", therefore refers to any sword.

10th June 2005, 05:46 PM	#6
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	As an Arabic speaker, I can confirm that, 'saif' (pronounced Seyf) simply means 'sword'. It is possibly derived from the Greek Xyphos. Very nice nimcha BTW.

11th June 2005, 01:00 AM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yes, but I don't think that's in-depth enough for clarity, because the word "sword" does not just mean any sword; it (sword, svert, and even espada, though I don't know how things come down on that being the same word), like saif is in actual usage often only used to refer to longswords. This practice still holds in N America (another American comment "Those aren't REAL swords...."). A "Viking" would not refer to his long sax as a svert. Likewise, AFAIK an Arab would not refer to, oh say, one of those xtra big sword-sized jambiyas as a sayf (?) Swords that are AFAIK known to their native users as saifs; Arabian saif per se; "nimcha"; the guardless Berber sabres; kaskara. Other shorter swords from the same regions and tribes are, AFAIK (?) not called sayf. I'm all in favor of a breadth for the word sword comparable to how it is used in translating from Japanese to English, but it did originally refer to a longsword. Rick, the joint you describe is exactly the joint I saw on a French guard I owned, except it was in brass, and with two round tenons. It was also soldered, but had broken wide open when it came to me....the lone round tenon if not soldered too, seems particularly liable to become loose and swingy? Is the joint "keyed" or "locked" in any other way (ie by the in-side of the knucklebow being hollowed, and the end of the quillon curved or peaked to match? Just a random thought, that.