Appreciation

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jussi, I feel that what you have given us is what I would categorise as "modern marketing theory" (...)

But can we scratch a wee bit deeper than this?

Maybe what you have written is touching on what I'm trying to get at, but I feel it is touching on it as an overlay, not as a part of the foundation. (...)

Perhaps you may care to think a little more on this question?

Greetings Mr. Maisey,

I was not implying to marketing or advertising per se but what lies beneath it. - Yes, advertising tries to exploit the phenomena we are talking about by riding on top of it hoping to catch the wave (and building them from scratch) so to speak but the phenomena we are addressing is born within - not something that can be put forth from outside unless there is a craving already.

We humans want to go further and achieve our goals of which the highest is happiness (self-actualization). We become happy by advancing towards our goals. What ever might be associated with happiness thus becomes a vehicle that could take us towards it. Buying and money per se have absolutely nothing to do with it except that they have become the norm to get them vehicles which one uses to close with what one identifies as the bringer of oneness I. happiness. This is why a fake Vermeer is not OK. If it were one would willingly accept redemption.

Would one willingly choose a fake God on his side?

No. This is why we accept to sacrifice (pay) a lot for the original but become angered if deceived. - Whilst both the original and fake might appear similar in appearance it is only the original which has the power to bring us closer to oneness / happiness.

In my opinion the story per se is therefore not it.

It is the values embedded within and evoked by the story that are it. The story is merely a vehicle to get to the source which paradoxically or not lies within our very own value system and the preconception formed by it. We humans are, by nature, social predators. Thus there is "always" a social element in everything we do whether the act itself be of a social nature or not. An act done in seclusion of, say in ones own study room, has therefore a "social element" in it as it as it is the lack of the social elements that make´s the act (ritual) special for the performer of it. Thus, say for example a collector of kerises may feel genuine oneness I. happiness when he is performing his monthly ritual of oiling his ORIGINAL kerises.

The act (here oiling) thus becomes a physical manifestation - a ritual if you will - of the pursuit of self-actualization I. happiness by coming closer with - choose - and what one deems as "it". It has been said that a "man is the image of God". By closing and advancing what one feels is "true", "original" and "right" one becomes closer to oneness I. being happy by performing them "divine" acts.

What these acts are or what vehicles are used is mere surface level noise. What is important is what values we attach to these acts and vehicles, why and how this happens, how do we "label" new things of either belonging or not belonging (separating) to the same camp with what we deem "worthy" and "good", how do we come up with what is "good" etc?

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Why did Josh Bell take $32 in the subway on one day, and $25,000 the following day when he climbed onto a stage?

Because both audiences recognized the authenticity and divinity of the performance. The zeros in the physical manifestation of these acknowledgments is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

What is going on in our minds?

That indeed is a good question.

[A. G. Maisey]

Jussi, I respect the effort and thought has gone into your posts, however, I feel that you might be moving perhaps level or two in advance of the purely personal appreciation of an object, and that is what we are directing our attention to.

What is happening when we encounter, rather than when we acquire, or feel a need to acquire.

The propaganda/marketing/ societally influenced logic can certainly work for the individual who has been exposed to it, but how do we understand the influence of the object itself in the absence of these influences?

[rasjid]

I started collecting "things" after married and with kids!
From precious stones and knives, all of them I always wanted to know the details on how to identify the material I collected.
With knives, I'm interested to know the material used and what's the difference / advantages with other materials - so I collect a few different type of sword with different type of material -and also tried to make knife as well.

Now, with the keris - the same cycle as well, I do not start with buying all old / antique keris on the market because I personally believe 90% (normally I would say 99% ) the keris on the market are recent make. (this is purely personal opinion). The old keris I'm referring to is before 1800. Even early in 1900, I believe people already make "created" old keris as well. How many people in the old days have keris made for them with kinatah on it? I believe in the old days, the keris (as a pusaka) only made by order and shown to close relative only. Other keris (as a tourist keris - nowadays) also plenty during that era.

I like keris from art and the time spent to make one. I personally like to know more about the material first, asked the maker how he made and what material they used, choose the warangka/pendok material or design, etc. Try to introduce some new material and see the difference. All this experience, I can not get if I bought old keris.

I collect keris if I have the "feel" that I like it, the model, pamor, "feel" when handling the keris, it does not matter if new or old - as long as within my "knowledge" of keris at that time... I even buy a keris (was told old) but I know it recent made... as long as I like it... simple

cheers..

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for these further contributions Emanuel and Rasjid.

I think we are building towards some sort of an understanding of our motivations to collect.

However, I would like to very gently make one point:-

the subject of the thread is "appreciation", and the question I raised was this:-

"I would welcome the thoughts of others on the link between the appreciation of art and objects and the maintenance of sanity in a world that is rapidly decreasing in size at the same time that it is equally rapidly increasing in ordinariness."

We are drifting ever closer to an answer to a different question, which involves the motivations or reasons for collecting.

Perhaps we collect because we have an appreciation of something, but I wonder what is the link between that appreciation and our individual feelings?

If we consider this question, then a further question arises which concerns the the origin of the appreciation.

Possibly the appreciation of the object could generate a desire to acquire a number of those objects, thus we become collectors.

So, the function of "collecting" is several steps further along the path than the point at which it began.

We do not need to collect anything, to have an appreciation of that thing, but the feeling of appreciation still has its effect upon us.

This is the matter I would like to address.

I see it as having two parts:-

1) --- origin of appreciation

2) --- effect of appreciation upon us as individuals.

I'm taking a leave of absence at this point, in order to attend to some personal matters. I will be very interested to see any further thoughts on this matter.

[Montino Bourbon]

when I was about 16, going to school in Switzerland, roughly in 1958, I saw a movie that changed my life. It was “the seven samurai”, and although I had had, as a child, a childish fascination with swords, I immediately “got into” Japanese swords.

Years later, as a senior in high school in Manhattan, I was in an archery loft on 86th St. and I happened to look across the street. There, above Lowe's 80 6th St., Theatre, I saw people practicing kendo, which for those of you who don't know (I'm sure all of you know, but I mention it anyway) is a Japanese martial art based on the Japanese sword.

From there, it was collecting Japanese swords, and a lot of time passed. The swords that I handled, and practiced Iai-do with, always had an energy about them that I liked.

About 20 years ago I started finding out about keris, and especially all the “magical” aspects of them. Since I already had a pretty good grounding in metallurgy, I could really appreciate the artistic energy that went into making them, and the occult energy that they held.

One day, I went by a pawn shop, and when I went in I noticed some keris on the wall. I asked to see them, and one of them really jumped out at me. I have shown that keris here on this forum, and it is one with a handle in the shape of Petruk, one of the sons of Semar. the keris is quite fine, beautiful painting on the wrangka, but what especially impressed me was the energy.

I obsessed on that keris, especially after I had a very intense dream in which I and that keris had a very interesting exchange of energy.

I offered the shopkeeper a price, which he did not accept. I raised it until finally he sold it to me.

I'm a musician, and a few different times I have worn that keris on stage. Alan has seen photographs of it, and has commented that it's possible that it may have belonged to a performer, perhaps a Dalang.

I also have to tell you that sometimes, like right now, certain pieces in my collection ask me to oil them. I feel that if I don't get up right away and put oil on them, they won't have the kind of energy that they should have. Or maybe they'll feel neglected, and pout when I next go to see them.

Since then, I have collected a few keris. I don't have a large collection, and I have other nice things in it including some moghul pieces and some nice wootz daggers. I also have very “down home” pieces, such as primitive farm implements and “using” knives. I always like to feel the energy in a piece, and I won't buy it unless I get a really “good hit” from it. Lately I bought a little kukri that probably belonged to some farmer. I paid less than $20 for it, and when I got it it was obvious that it was made by a smith for real use. I'll probably publish photographs of it sometime soon, and although it's nothing fancy I really like it for its no-nonsense energy.

So yes, I did buy the story. Without the story, there is really no collecting. My teacher, Ali Akbar Khan, was the greatest musician of the last century in India, and pretty much everything that he taught had a story. I like stories. I'm a pretty good storyteller myself.

Alan, I want to thank you for starting this thread. I find it interesting and fascinating to hear everybody's take on the subject, and I hope that I answered your question without wandering too far from the subject.