My Haladie

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2010, 07:42 PM

Again, I am delighted to be able to enter into discussion on this subject matter with both of you, and it is great to see not only deep interest, but experience evidenced by great examples....and impressive research. I really appreciate the examples you have both added here, which really give great perspective.

Ispn, these links are really good examples that some links between the Sudan and Saharan regions to the west show a degree of hybridization. I would point out that it is known that small numbers of Tuareg, in of course thier typical nomadic fashion, were situated in areas of the Sudan, though I believe in the Darfur areas rather than Nilotic . Going through the links you have provided ( excellent!!) my observations would be,
1. The Sudanese childs sword...these dukari symbols are entirely stylized stamps using a disc and wavy line which have lost identity as crescent moons, but the positioning, therefore temporal symbolism remain. The triple fuller central blade is characteristic.
2. The full size kaskara with heavy disc pommel is of Darfur style and is with the central triple fuller configuration, with correctly formed dukari moons in correct position at outer fuller terminus'.
This is reminscent of the thuluth covered 'Hausa' example shown in Briggs.
3. A distinct Darfur type kaskara, however with a single central fuller and inscription of lohr panel with traditional positioned crescent moons, but with the same circular stamp and wavy line of number one.
4. Another childs kaskara with the standard triple fullers and disc with wavy line, of the form of 1, 4
5. Another higher quality Darfur type kaskara of characteristic silverwork, blade triple fuller, with the stylized wavy line disc.

These are evidence that the symbolic markings used on takouba were probably either used in degenerated forms or stylizations by smiths who had either brought or adopted these from those in takouba producing regions.
It must be noted that both takouba and kaskara are of course broadswords, and there would have been movement in either direction via trade or nomadic tribal movements.

I think the best example yet is the southern mounted Tuareg takouba with the thuluth covered Tuareg blade. This blade is of course a Sudanese etched blade of Solingen origin, as were many kaskara blades in the 19th century.
Seeing this blade mounted in Taureg hilt strongly emphasizes that these blades did move the the west on occasion. This one is truly an anomaly which further emphasizes the potential for such blades from the Sudan to have reached trade centers as far as Nigeria.

The kaskara in the American museum is of course a perfect example of museum bureaucracy. Often donors will misattribute items which are part of estates of family and they assume the provenance from what they know of the persons travels. The museum should have researched the weapon further and realized it is a Sudanese kaskara, not a Tuareg sword. Frankly the average person does not typically know one broadsword from another, and some museums sometimes sensationalize display captions to suit thier purposes. Gratefully, most are more attentive, and Im very surprised this error was not caught.

Tim, a very interesting example which is of course a Sudanese dagger fashioned from a socket bayonet, I believe this is a Martini-Henry, but Im not entirely certain, though it appears British military. The crocodile hide, and in this case, the foot, was a well known decorative mounting, which I have always thought was a sort of psyschological presentation, which may have had more to do with the slaving enterprises. The thuluth inscriptions on the blade may indicate this was absorbed in the acid etching processes at Omdurman during the Mahdist years however.
I have not seen these blades used on Tuareg weapons personally, but know that they were often used across Africa for many weapons including s'boula in Morocco, though those were typically French bayonets.

Thanks again guys very much,
All best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 13th July 2010, 09:42 PM

There are Maru’s and there are Haladies – they are the same, but called differently as they appear to be from different places.

This one is Indian and dated 1221 AH – 1806 AD.

Jim McDougall · 14th July 2010, 03:02 AM

Outstanding example Jens! Thank you. These are the Rajput weapons which evolved out of the connected horn type parrying weapons of Rajasthan.
It is really interesting to see this example with bifurcated tips.
Thank you for getting the thread back to the original course in looking into the haladie and some of its history.

All the very best,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 14th July 2010, 04:59 PM

Jim. The dagger has monitor lizard skin and foot dress. I was once in tune with the British bayonet thing but now I am informed. As I acquired another very much smaller with a scabbard, saddly I have no longer. The scabbard was dressed with the stuffed head of a monitor lizard and front leg. The blade was the same form and you could see from the forging it was not a converted bayonet. I started a thread which i will try to find. The thread I would really like to find started by a member that I cannot remeber. Displaying two or three daggers of the same blade form except the handles were clearly North African ie Tunis, Algeria, Morroco.

Jim McDougall · 14th July 2010, 11:18 PM

Tim I didnt realize this was the lizard and from photos I only saw reptilian

Naturally there werent many crocs in the Sahara

I really had not ever heard of Tuaregs having these kind of blades, which are of bayonet form, but do know that as you note, Berber tribal groups did use them. As I mentioned though, most were French types, but this blade section like most was probably widespread.
I'd like to see that thread, and this really is an interesting weapon....but to me the thuluth is still Sudanese. The monitor lizard skin is on many of the knives and dagger forms I have seen from there.

What you're saying is quite correct, Timbuktu was a profound center of Islamic scholarship, though was often considered an earthen desert spot that became synonomous with being the middle of nowhere....until in recent years amazing libraries and archives were revealed. Here in Mali, the trade routes and interaction of nomadic tribes, most prevalent being Tuareg, is well noted and cultural awareness certainly well represented.

Tim Simmons · 17th July 2010, 04:55 PM

I can not find the thread. I will keep looking. Thuluth has many forms from various parts of the islamic world. I wonder if we could get Verified examples from "Sudan" and examples from "Western Soudan" for examination. Could be a good thread to start.

Jim McDougall · 17th July 2010, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I can not find the thread. I will keep looking. Thuluth has many forms from various parts of the islamic world. I wonder if we could get Verified examples from "Sudan" and examples from "Western Soudan" for examination. Could be a good thread to start.

Thats an excellent idea Tim as this is a topic that would be extremely helpful in understanding the motif on these weapons. A separate thread would help as the subtopic is lost in the context of this thread...which has been a facinating discussion BTW !!!
I have taken the liberty of posting a separate thread as you have suggested, and I look forward to pursuing this further with you and hopefully others will join in. I couldnt find the other thread either, but did come across the interesting thread from April 'Sudanese kirach' which looked at a curious Indian sword with thuluth covered blade.

Maybe Rick can find the old bayonet thread?

13th July 2010, 09:42 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	There are Maru’s and there are Haladies – they are the same, but called differently as they appear to be from different places. This one is Indian and dated 1221 AH – 1806 AD. Attached Images

17th July 2010, 04:55 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Start Thuluth thread I can not find the thread. I will keep looking. Thuluth has many forms from various parts of the islamic world. I wonder if we could get Verified examples from "Sudan" and examples from "Western Soudan" for examination. Could be a good thread to start.

13th July 2010, 07:42 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Again, I am delighted to be able to enter into discussion on this subject matter with both of you, and it is great to see not only deep interest, but experience evidenced by great examples....and impressive research. I really appreciate the examples you have both added here, which really give great perspective. Ispn, these links are really good examples that some links between the Sudan and Saharan regions to the west show a degree of hybridization. I would point out that it is known that small numbers of Tuareg, in of course thier typical nomadic fashion, were situated in areas of the Sudan, though I believe in the Darfur areas rather than Nilotic . Going through the links you have provided ( excellent!!) my observations would be, 1. The Sudanese childs sword...these dukari symbols are entirely stylized stamps using a disc and wavy line which have lost identity as crescent moons, but the positioning, therefore temporal symbolism remain. The triple fuller central blade is characteristic. 2. The full size kaskara with heavy disc pommel is of Darfur style and is with the central triple fuller configuration, with correctly formed dukari moons in correct position at outer fuller terminus'. This is reminscent of the thuluth covered 'Hausa' example shown in Briggs. 3. A distinct Darfur type kaskara, however with a single central fuller and inscription of lohr panel with traditional positioned crescent moons, but with the same circular stamp and wavy line of number one. 4. Another childs kaskara with the standard triple fullers and disc with wavy line, of the form of 1, 4 5. Another higher quality Darfur type kaskara of characteristic silverwork, blade triple fuller, with the stylized wavy line disc. These are evidence that the symbolic markings used on takouba were probably either used in degenerated forms or stylizations by smiths who had either brought or adopted these from those in takouba producing regions. It must be noted that both takouba and kaskara are of course broadswords, and there would have been movement in either direction via trade or nomadic tribal movements. I think the best example yet is the southern mounted Tuareg takouba with the thuluth covered Tuareg blade. This blade is of course a Sudanese etched blade of Solingen origin, as were many kaskara blades in the 19th century. Seeing this blade mounted in Taureg hilt strongly emphasizes that these blades did move the the west on occasion. This one is truly an anomaly which further emphasizes the potential for such blades from the Sudan to have reached trade centers as far as Nigeria. The kaskara in the American museum is of course a perfect example of museum bureaucracy. Often donors will misattribute items which are part of estates of family and they assume the provenance from what they know of the persons travels. The museum should have researched the weapon further and realized it is a Sudanese kaskara, not a Tuareg sword. Frankly the average person does not typically know one broadsword from another, and some museums sometimes sensationalize display captions to suit thier purposes. Gratefully, most are more attentive, and Im very surprised this error was not caught. Tim, a very interesting example which is of course a Sudanese dagger fashioned from a socket bayonet, I believe this is a Martini-Henry, but Im not entirely certain, though it appears British military. The crocodile hide, and in this case, the foot, was a well known decorative mounting, which I have always thought was a sort of psyschological presentation, which may have had more to do with the slaving enterprises. The thuluth inscriptions on the blade may indicate this was absorbed in the acid etching processes at Omdurman during the Mahdist years however. I have not seen these blades used on Tuareg weapons personally, but know that they were often used across Africa for many weapons including s'boula in Morocco, though those were typically French bayonets. Thanks again guys very much, All best regards, Jim

14th July 2010, 03:02 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Outstanding example Jens! Thank you. These are the Rajput weapons which evolved out of the connected horn type parrying weapons of Rajasthan. It is really interesting to see this example with bifurcated tips. Thank you for getting the thread back to the original course in looking into the haladie and some of its history. All the very best, Jim

14th July 2010, 04:59 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Jim. The dagger has monitor lizard skin and foot dress. I was once in tune with the British bayonet thing but now I am informed. As I acquired another very much smaller with a scabbard, saddly I have no longer. The scabbard was dressed with the stuffed head of a monitor lizard and front leg. The blade was the same form and you could see from the forging it was not a converted bayonet. I started a thread which i will try to find. The thread I would really like to find started by a member that I cannot remeber. Displaying two or three daggers of the same blade form except the handles were clearly North African ie Tunis, Algeria, Morroco.

14th July 2010, 11:18 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Tim I didnt realize this was the lizard and from photos I only saw reptilian Naturally there werent many crocs in the Sahara I really had not ever heard of Tuaregs having these kind of blades, which are of bayonet form, but do know that as you note, Berber tribal groups did use them. As I mentioned though, most were French types, but this blade section like most was probably widespread. I'd like to see that thread, and this really is an interesting weapon....but to me the thuluth is still Sudanese. The monitor lizard skin is on many of the knives and dagger forms I have seen from there. What you're saying is quite correct, Timbuktu was a profound center of Islamic scholarship, though was often considered an earthen desert spot that became synonomous with being the middle of nowhere....until in recent years amazing libraries and archives were revealed. Here in Mali, the trade routes and interaction of nomadic tribes, most prevalent being Tuareg, is well noted and cultural awareness certainly well represented.