Proposed Changes in Swap Forum Rules

[fernando]

Hi Stu,

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

... If the Forum becomes too difficult with large numbers of rules, I feel that people will start looking elsewhere ...

Bitter feelings, my friend .
Say, aren't you 'swapping' things ?
Improving swap rules is the issue here
I would never dream with your assumption that, utilizing the swap section, is the major reason to frequent Vickingsword forum .
Fernando

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by fernando

Improving swap rules is the issue here
Fernando

Improving anything is good as long as it is an improvement, for clarity for all, where are the deficencies currently with the swap forum that warrant this structure or improvments? Perhaps they are the points that should be discussed openly with whys.

Gav

[Lew]

As for posting an asking price for a sale items. I belong to a few other collector sites and they are pretty clear on this matter you must post a price if you are selling an item. So if these other forums use this rule why is it such a big deal here? Btw email addresses should be optional IMO.

Gav

Since you are a dealer which one of the purposed rules do you have issues with?

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Lew

As for posting an asking price for a sale items. I belong to a few other collector sites and they are pretty clear on this matter you must post a price if you are selling an item. So if these other forums use this rule why is it such a big deal here? Btw email addresses should be optional IMO.

Gav

Since you are a dealer which one of the purposed rules do you have issues with?

Lew,

Rules are rules and I have no problem with rules, dealer or not if they be put in place, they must however be clear.

My initial thoughts were expressed to Lee and I am sure here has bought them to the table internally as I have seen one point expressed above.

I'm pretty easy going Lew, my philosopy is simple, what comes will come, what stays will stay and what goes will go. The rules may come the rules may go, thats life, but saying that, I like all things to be equal and everyone to be on an even playing field in a shared enviroment, I am like that and very fair with my own employees in my own role as a State Business Coordinator for a large rail company, no one has the upper hand and we all share the same open office plan, nothing is hidden.

What is the definition of a dealer by the way? Is it some one who makes their living out of dealing? I ask cause that aint me. Mine is a hobby, I buy and sell and have a point of sale for the benfit of others to find what they want and to grow my own personal collections, nothing more, it doesn't line my pockets or build me ivory towers.

Look what has happened with the Keris swap forum, sure there was a need to do something but now Keirs swap has dried up, people don't bother. IMHO the people being the issue in the Keris forum should have been handled, not the Keris swap forum, it 'appears' to benefit no one but the moderators now.

Is there a need to do something about the ethno forum? Obviously or there wouldn't be this discussion going on. Tell us what the issues are , this makes proposed change easier to deal with for some I am sure.

I feel that after seeing the keris swap 'die' in 'absolute' rules, this ethno swap might too. If the people are an issue, talk to the people and get a resolution, if dealers post to often in a style thats not to taste talk to them, if single sellers (who I still call a dealer depending of frequency) are bumping to much to often talk to them.
The issue I see in these proposed changes is not seeing the clartiy of the 'whys', the full picture. Is there dealer or Ebay resentment out there? I don't know? Is there? I know I do a lot for free for a lot of people here and they are the only ones who see this, recently I helped ISPN dispose of his Dha to a non member, nothing for me. Will I take an interest in the swap forum and the other people within its pages if I am closed out because I have a website, probably not, just another step closer to the keris forum in my eyes and others I know. Will I be missed in the swap forum, I think not. Will it bother me? Not really. Will I continue to converse in the forum pages, of course, life goes on.

But I put to you Lew as a moderator rep;
Why the proposed changes? The full picture.
What are the becauses behind the proposed changes?
Most of all, what are the expected benefits from the proposed changes? To change anything there must be a benefit???

Originally Posted by David

Is the swap forum really a major reason for anyone to visit these forums? Isn't it the intensive and well-informed discussion of ethnographic weapons which, AFAIK can't be found at this level anywhere else on the Internet? The swap forum was originally begun to allow our collecting members a way to dispose of items they no longer wanted and offer them to other collecting members who might have a place in their collections for such an item. It was never intended to be a clearing house for dealers or a place for competitive auctions.

I am confused about this reasoning. Naming a price in no way means that the seller cannot settle for a lower price in negotiation with a buyer or decide to trade with a potential buyer if the buyer offers a piece that interests the seller. It does set the price that the seller expects and keeps the swap from becoming an auction house with competing bidding. It also give a potential swapper an idea of the value of the piece in the seller's eyes and some idea of what might be an acceptable item to offer in swap to the seller.

It has always been a problem to discuss particular items that are currently up for sale or auction. I believe the same would be true of captured images if the item is currently up for sale.
In terms of regular dealers making people aware of their websites, websites can always be posted in a member's profile page. Perhaps dealer members could have a dealer designation on their avatar so that other members would know to look in their profile for their websites. As for updates, i would assume that active dealers are always updating their websites and that interested parties would check in from time to time anyway.

Originally Posted by David

Well Gav, i did a bit of that in my post #13, to which no one seems to have responded to other than other moderators.

David,

I do see part of the picture expressed about where it was and were it is, this is nice to have it suggested. If these are the reasons at to why this is proposed great, spell it out loud and clear, put a sticky in the swap forum and monitor it. Too easy.
For me points 1,2,5 all good but points 3&4 all good too but the statements are non clear proposals. I have trouble getting my head around the word 'may', too vague. What is it? It either will or it wont, this is my question about the use of this word 'may' in points 3&4. Answering this may add a little more clarity. The rest of the content I see as just 'what to do' notions not why reasons.

Gav

[David]

Originally Posted by freebooter

What is the definition of a dealer by the way? Is it some one who makes their living out of dealing?

My own personal definition of a dealer is anyone who regularly makes a profit from the resale of items. Whether this is the person's major source of income in immaterial.

Originally Posted by freebooter

Look what has happened with the Keris swap forum, sure there was a need to do something but now Keirs swap has dried up, people don't bother. IMHO the people being the issue in the Keris forum should have been handled, not the Keris swap forum, it 'appears' to benefit no one but the moderators now.
I feel that after seeing the keris swap 'die' in 'absolute' rules, this ethno swap might too.

99% of what was being posted in terms of keris for sale in these forums was being done so by opportunistic dealers who either spent no time whatsoever contributing to discussion in the keris forum or, worse yet, used discussion in the forum to manipulate information for their sales.There was constant misrepresentation of the age and quality of pieces and in a genre of collection where there are constant forgeries and artificially aged pieces things were getting way out of hand. It's easy to say handle the people, not the swap, but in practice it was near impossible. Dealers were using the Keris Forum itself to subtly introduce keris that were intended for sale. Banned dealers often resurfaced with new tag names and keeping track became a complicated case of cat and mouse. Personally, as a collector of keris, i have never used the swap to make any purchases, though i have been tempted by a few items that i just couldn't afford. I make my purchases from a few well know and trusted dealers who, while members here, don't seem to see the need to use the swap forums at all to sell their items. Every now and then i make a gamble on ePray if i think i see a deal or a sleeper item. But as the rules exist today i would find no problem offering a keris for sale if i wanted to lighten my own collection. I have, in fact been considering doing just that and i don't see what particular rule is so constricting that i would find myself unable to place an ad there. It's certainly a whole lot less complicated then putting up an auction on eBay and i don't have to pay anyone a percentage of my sale. The service is absolutely free for members. It does, of course, become a problem when people become members with the main emphasis being to set up a free sales site on our forum. This is obviously not the case with you. I find you to be a valued and involved member who spends much time contributing to forum discussion. But this is not every dealers take (and yes Gav, even though you have a "day job" i do consider you a dealer. You have a website and i am sure that you make at least some profit, however small, on the re-sale of your items) and frankly i would love to see the swap return to the spirit of a collector-centric outlet. Let's face it, just about all of us scourer eBay practically daily for deals. Dealer member websites can be clearly found on profile pages if members are searching for items. Most of us are already aware of them and if we like them they are bookmarked on our computers. The importance of Vikingsword and it's original purpose and design is one of sharing discussion and knowledge, of exploring the world of ethnographic weaponry. It's membership is knowledge, varied and international and the type of information that can be found here is often more accurate and detailed than any book or museum curator is capable of providing. It is not now, nor has it ever been primarily a place of commerce and if either selling or buying weapons is anyone real reason for being here then i am afraid that they are missing out on the bigger picture.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

My own personal definition of a dealer is anyone who regularly makes a profit from the resale of items. Whether this is the person's major source of income in immaterial.

99% of what was being posted in terms of keris for sale in these forums was being done so by opportunistic dealers who either spent no time whatsoever contributing to discussion in the keris forum or, worse yet, used discussion in the forum to manipulate information for their sales.There was constant misrepresentation of the age and quality of pieces and in a genre of collection where there are constant forgeries and artificially aged pieces things were getting way out of hand. It's easy to say handle the people, not the swap, but in practice it was near impossible. Dealers were using the Keris Forum itself to subtly introduce keris that were intended for sale. Banned dealers often resurfaced with new tag names and keeping track became a complicated case of cat and mouse. Personally, as a collector of keris, i have never used the swap to make any purchases, though i have been tempted by a few items that i just couldn't afford. I make my purchases from a few well know and trusted dealers who, while members here, don't seem to see the need to use the swap forums at all to sell their items. Every now and then i make a gamble on ePray if i think i see a deal or a sleeper item. But as the rules exist today i would find no problem offering a keris for sale if i wanted to lighten my own collection. I have, in fact been considering doing just that and i don't see what particular rule is so constricting that i would find myself unable to place an ad there. It's certainly a whole lot less complicated then putting up an auction on eBay and i don't have to pay anyone a percentage of my sale. The service is absolutely free for members. It does, of course, become a problem when people become members with the main emphasis being to set up a free sales site on our forum. This is obviously not the case with you. I find you to be a valued and involved member who spends much time contributing to forum discussion. But this is not every dealers take (and yes Gav, even though you have a "day job" i do consider you a dealer. You have a website and i am sure that you make at least some profit, however small, on the re-sale of your items) and frankly i would love to see the swap return to the spirit of a collector-centric outlet. Let's face it, just about all of us scourer eBay practically daily for deals. Dealer member websites can be clearly found on profile pages if members are searching for items. Most of us are already aware of them and if we like them they are bookmarked on our computers. The importance of Vikingsword and it's original purpose and design is one of sharing discussion and knowledge, of exploring the world of ethnographic weaponry. It's membership is knowledge, varied and international and the type of information that can be found here is often more accurate and detailed than any book or museum curator is capable of providing. It is not now, nor has it ever been primarily a place of commerce and if either selling or buying weapons is anyone real reason for being here then i am afraid that they are missing out on the bigger picture.

David,

Great and valid points within.

I think it is clear that the swap forum is NOT the reason people are here, however the real double edged sword is we are all here to discusss learn and study these wonderful weapons but think for a momnet, and yes there are many external avenues for commerce but without commerce be it here or anywhere else, there is no flow of product to follow. No product, nothing new, nothing new, no learning, no discussions. Please take it as a point context, not an absolute.
I'll take a back seat for a while and see what the broader community have to say as they are what makes this forum so fantastic to participate.

I look forward to seeing the questions I pose answered in time.

Gav

[fearn]

Hi Lew and all,

I think we've still got some contradictions here. Personally, I have bought a couple of things on the swap forum, and it is useful to have a price on there. However, that forum isn't a store, and I respect the people who only give out price info when contacted.

I also respect those who want to swap things. That leaves me out, because I have a small collection, and I would have to swap money for most of the things I see. In that sense, a desire to trade among friends is certainly exclusionary.

So we've got a couple of conflicting desires at play here, it seems.
--the moderators want less work, and this seems to be primarily the work of chasing down questionable dealers.
--the senior members want to trade with each other, potentially to the exclusion of newbies. A newbie can see what's being traded, but unless they have something of equal value, they can't obtain it. The long term problem with this approach is that the group needs to continually recruit new members in order to survive.
--Other people want to sell their pieces, either by posting them directly or by linking to their own sites.
--Rules such as in the keris forum kill the trade. Nice for moderators (less work), but not terribly useful for anyone else.

Obviously, the forum can't have all three characteristics.

I'd suggest two things:
1. Split off a swap forum. Create a place where money does not change hands and commercial activity is not tolerated. This will preserve the exchange that some members value, and the rules would be clear. Posts not following them would either be moved or deleted.
2. Have a buy/sell/trade forum for commerce. Caveat emptor should be the rule here, but potential purchasers should be free to comment (as a method of quality control). Actively malicious material should be removed, but otherwise, it would be more equivalent to the swap board of last year.

[David]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Improving anything is good as long as it is an improvement, for clarity for all, where are the deficencies currently with the swap forum that warrant this structure or improvments? Perhaps they are the points that should be discussed openly with whys.

Well Gav, i did a bit of that in my post #13, to which no one seems to have responded to other than other moderators.

[David]

I must also point out that the very first line of this thread states that "The Moderator's Team is considering this new 'rules set' for the swap forum."
It's very interesting to see who is getting all bent out of shape over this. Nothing has been put in place and the very fact that it has been put out here for discussion should tell you all something. Now...everyone breathe...

BTW, i also think that email addresses from sellers should be optional. On the other side of that coin however, the seller might want to consider that posting their email address would allow more potential buyers to contact them, since lurkers who are not members would be unable to use PM.