Unknown pamor

drdavid · 9th July 2010, 11:08 PM

Similar to ganggeng kanyut perhaps
drdavid

A. G. Maisey · 10th July 2010, 01:03 AM

I cannot immediately recognise what the maker was trying to produce.

We may be looking at a unique design, we may be looking at a failed attempt, or we may be looking at a variation of a conventional motif.

I will need to spend some time on analysis of this pamor motif before I am prepared to comment.

It goes without saying that working from a photograph is very far from being an ideal situation. This blade should really be examined under magnification and from a number of angles, in order to form an opinion.

Incidentally, in my opinion this blade was not made in Solo. It may have "come from Solo", but it was not produced there. Most likely point of origin is Madura.

A. G. Maisey · 10th July 2010, 04:47 AM

Sorry, I cannot name this pamor.

Since my earlier post I have spent a lot of time looking at the images, and my reference material.

The images do not tell me how this pamor material was manipulated, which I would need to know to have some chance of naming it.

On first impression it looks like a double twist welded side by side and with indentation,or perhaps with an additional "lawe setukal" bend process added in, but used in a different orientation, but when you look at the grain flow it seems as if it could be patches of material placed together.

The only way I could be certain about what I was looking at would be by physical examination using magnification. Without this facility I cannot give an opinion.

However, if somebody threatened to stick hot needles under my fingernails in the absence of an answer, I'd call it a dadung muntir variation.

Jean · 10th July 2010, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Sorry, I cannot name this pamor.

Since my earlier post I have spent a lot of time looking at the images, and my reference material.

The images do not tell me how this pamor material was manipulated, which I would need to know to have some chance of naming it.

On first impression it looks like a double twist welded side by side and with indentation,or perhaps with an additional "lawe setukal" bend process added in, but used in a different orientation, but when you look at the grain flow it seems as if it could be patches of material placed together.

The only way I could be certain about what I was looking at would be by physical examination using magnification. Without this facility I cannot give an opinion.
However, if somebody threatened to stick hot needles under my fingernails in the absence of an answer, I'd call it a dadung muntir variation.

Dear Alan,
Thank you very much for your thorough investigation of the pamor of this blade (very difficult from pictures only as you say).
Regarding the origin of the blade, it was found in Solo and fitted into a ladrang sheath from Solo (see picture). However the blade could well originate from elsewhere as you said and this may partly explain the difficulty for classifying this pamor. I am personally confident that this is not a recently made replica blade but I could be wrong of course.
Regarding the 3 different opinions received about the pamor style:
. The experienced seller and his expert friends from Solo could not recognize the pamor, however one of them identified it as pamor Kendhi Gumanthung (hanging jars). I only found one reference about this pamor in the Pamoratlas from Emile Van Veenendaal, but it appears as a pamor motif and not a full pamor as this one.
. Emile himself classified it as Lar Gangsir Kasar
. A well-know kris expert from Surabaya (and member of this forum) identified it as Rambut Daradah.
What do you think?

By the way no member of this forum would think of torturing you (except with nasty questions), we need you to much!
Best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 10th July 2010, 12:05 PM

I tend to agree that this is not a recent blade, but again, from pics?

I've frequently been wrong about things working from pics, one of the reasons I'm not prepared to gamble on ebay.

Pamor kendhi gumanthung I do not know, but it suggests a pamor tambal motif.

I considered lar gangsir agal myself, but I finally decided against it because of the repetitive nature with isolated sections that the motif on this blade displays. In lar gangsir you can normally trace grain flow, in your pamor the grain flow is interrupted. Examined under magnification I might --- a big might --- be prepared to accept lar gangsir agal.

I cannot recall hearing nor reading of pamor rambut daradah, rambut is "hair", I do not know the word "daradah".

However, not knowing a name is something that I do not regard as unusual, as pamor names change from area to area, and some pamors will be known in one area and not known in another area. The matter of pamor names can be confused even further by haphazard and irregular naming.

Perhaps 20 years ago I was in a keris dealer's warung in Solo. An agent came in with some keris for sale and after the dealer had selected what he wanted to buy, I in turn bought several from that dealer. I did not recognise the pamor on one of the blades and I asked both the dealer and the agent what it was called. They did not know, and the agent said it was something new that the maker had tried. The dealer suggested that I might like to give it a name, so I named it "tirto tejo". Since that time I have encountered this pamor a number of times, and more often than not the seller will call it tirto tejo.

I really do not think it is a good idea to get too involved with the names given to unusual and non-standard pamor motifs.

Jean · 10th July 2010, 01:39 PM

Dear Alan,
My first impression was that the pamor is rather continuous and not applied by patches like pamor Tambal for instance but I will check it with magnifying lens (the blade is not with me at present). If it is the case, then pamor Kendhi Gumanthung could be a correct name.
You are correct that assigning the right name to the various pamors is not that easy nor even important but collectors like to classify their wares!
Apparently pamor Rambut Daradah is mentioned in one of the EK's from Pak Bambang but I can't check it from here.
The story of your invention of pamor Tirto Tejo is amazing, congratulations!
Best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 10th July 2010, 02:58 PM

I found rambut daradah in "Pamor Eksotik", and on your advice I've looked at EK and its there too, but rambut daradah is not like the pamor in your keris.

Essentially it is pamor mrambut but with indented edges. In other words a thin, whispy pamor adeg (which is what pamor mrambut is like), but with irregularly indented edges.

Your pamor appears to be a heavily manipulated twist pattern.

However, if we ignore the segmentation and the compacted joints that appear to indicate a twist, then, yes, there is a similarity to an adeg motif.

It really is essential to have the blade in your hand when you are faced with this sort of situation.

Yes Jean, you're right:- some collectors place a very great importance upon classification, and this is one of the reasons why those people will forever remain as collectors, rather than as students of the keris. My personal approach to understanding a keris is with appraisal of craftsmanship and feeling.Names are a secondary consideration.

What I have been taught about the naming of a pamor is this:-

first understand what the maker did to produce the motif

then understand what the pamor was that he was trying to produce

if there is sufficient resemblance to the motif he was trying to achieve , then you give the motif that name

if there is insufficient resemblance to the desired motif it is a failed motif

if it is not possible to understand the making process, and the pamor does not resemble a known motif , then it is an unknown motif :- go ask the maker --- no, not really, I'm being facetious

Re the tirto tejo story. At the time I gave that name I was not aware that there was a pamor already that was named tirto tejo, but since that time I have come across several different pamor patterns, as well as the one I named, that are all referred to as tirto tejo.

Rather than try to place names on everything, it is, in my opinion, far more important to be able to recognise excellence of execution.

9th July 2010, 11:08 PM	#1
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Similar to ganggeng kanyut perhaps drdavid

10th July 2010, 01:03 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	I cannot immediately recognise what the maker was trying to produce. We may be looking at a unique design, we may be looking at a failed attempt, or we may be looking at a variation of a conventional motif. I will need to spend some time on analysis of this pamor motif before I am prepared to comment. It goes without saying that working from a photograph is very far from being an ideal situation. This blade should really be examined under magnification and from a number of angles, in order to form an opinion. Incidentally, in my opinion this blade was not made in Solo. It may have "come from Solo", but it was not produced there. Most likely point of origin is Madura.

10th July 2010, 04:47 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Sorry, I cannot name this pamor. Since my earlier post I have spent a lot of time looking at the images, and my reference material. The images do not tell me how this pamor material was manipulated, which I would need to know to have some chance of naming it. On first impression it looks like a double twist welded side by side and with indentation,or perhaps with an additional "lawe setukal" bend process added in, but used in a different orientation, but when you look at the grain flow it seems as if it could be patches of material placed together. The only way I could be certain about what I was looking at would be by physical examination using magnification. Without this facility I cannot give an opinion. However, if somebody threatened to stick hot needles under my fingernails in the absence of an answer, I'd call it a dadung muntir variation.

10th July 2010, 12:05 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	I tend to agree that this is not a recent blade, but again, from pics? I've frequently been wrong about things working from pics, one of the reasons I'm not prepared to gamble on ebay. Pamor kendhi gumanthung I do not know, but it suggests a pamor tambal motif. I considered lar gangsir agal myself, but I finally decided against it because of the repetitive nature with isolated sections that the motif on this blade displays. In lar gangsir you can normally trace grain flow, in your pamor the grain flow is interrupted. Examined under magnification I might --- a big might --- be prepared to accept lar gangsir agal. I cannot recall hearing nor reading of pamor rambut daradah, rambut is "hair", I do not know the word "daradah". However, not knowing a name is something that I do not regard as unusual, as pamor names change from area to area, and some pamors will be known in one area and not known in another area. The matter of pamor names can be confused even further by haphazard and irregular naming. Perhaps 20 years ago I was in a keris dealer's warung in Solo. An agent came in with some keris for sale and after the dealer had selected what he wanted to buy, I in turn bought several from that dealer. I did not recognise the pamor on one of the blades and I asked both the dealer and the agent what it was called. They did not know, and the agent said it was something new that the maker had tried. The dealer suggested that I might like to give it a name, so I named it "tirto tejo". Since that time I have encountered this pamor a number of times, and more often than not the seller will call it tirto tejo. I really do not think it is a good idea to get too involved with the names given to unusual and non-standard pamor motifs.

10th July 2010, 01:39 PM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Dear Alan, My first impression was that the pamor is rather continuous and not applied by patches like pamor Tambal for instance but I will check it with magnifying lens (the blade is not with me at present). If it is the case, then pamor Kendhi Gumanthung could be a correct name. You are correct that assigning the right name to the various pamors is not that easy nor even important but collectors like to classify their wares! Apparently pamor Rambut Daradah is mentioned in one of the EK's from Pak Bambang but I can't check it from here. The story of your invention of pamor Tirto Tejo is amazing, congratulations! Best regards Jean

10th July 2010, 02:58 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	I found rambut daradah in "Pamor Eksotik", and on your advice I've looked at EK and its there too, but rambut daradah is not like the pamor in your keris. Essentially it is pamor mrambut but with indented edges. In other words a thin, whispy pamor adeg (which is what pamor mrambut is like), but with irregularly indented edges. Your pamor appears to be a heavily manipulated twist pattern. However, if we ignore the segmentation and the compacted joints that appear to indicate a twist, then, yes, there is a similarity to an adeg motif. It really is essential to have the blade in your hand when you are faced with this sort of situation. Yes Jean, you're right:- some collectors place a very great importance upon classification, and this is one of the reasons why those people will forever remain as collectors, rather than as students of the keris. My personal approach to understanding a keris is with appraisal of craftsmanship and feeling.Names are a secondary consideration. What I have been taught about the naming of a pamor is this:- first understand what the maker did to produce the motif then understand what the pamor was that he was trying to produce if there is sufficient resemblance to the motif he was trying to achieve , then you give the motif that name if there is insufficient resemblance to the desired motif it is a failed motif if it is not possible to understand the making process, and the pamor does not resemble a known motif , then it is an unknown motif :- go ask the maker --- no, not really, I'm being facetious Re the tirto tejo story. At the time I gave that name I was not aware that there was a pamor already that was named tirto tejo, but since that time I have come across several different pamor patterns, as well as the one I named, that are all referred to as tirto tejo. Rather than try to place names on everything, it is, in my opinion, far more important to be able to recognise excellence of execution.