Krisses Jalak Buda

A. G. Maisey · 8th July 2010, 11:22 AM

Jean, to be brutally honest, my approach to tangguh varies according to the company I am in.

If I'm in Jawa with gentlemen who are very traditional followers of Javanese culture and philosophy, I agree with everything that is said --- it is not my place to to attempt to lecture people on their own culture.

Shut up. Listen. Learn.

If I am with people who are convinced that they already know all there is to be known, I do the same thing:-

Shut up. Listen. Learn -- or perhaps be mildly amused.

If I am with gentlemen who can take a calm, balanced, and logical view of the world and all things in it, I am prepared to adopt the third way and attempt to justify my acceptance of this approach.

As to an image of a typical keris budho, I do have a number of these and I am probably prepared to provide an image. Leave it with me, I'll see what I can do.

Jean · 8th July 2010, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, to be brutally honest, my approach to tangguh varies according to the company I am in.

As to an image of a typical keris budho, I do have a number of these and I am probably prepared to provide an image. Leave it with me, I'll see what I can do.

Dear Alan,
You are a very wise man, I also try to adopt this approach but am less "Javanesed" than you so I can't help to give my careful opinion sometimes with people whom I know well ....
I am sure that all the forumites will be very interested to see the pictures of your keris Budho as this is not a common occurrence!
Thank you again and best regards
Jean

Mick · 8th July 2010, 04:50 PM

Jean

Here is basicly what they look like. There has been a market for reproductions of this pieces for a long time. Based on the sheath that was provided for this piece I imagine that this was assembled in the 1930's. Normally there was no pamor on the real pieces. This is a giveaway on this one.

Jean · 8th July 2010, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick

Jean

Here is basicly what they look like. There has been a market for reproductions of this pieces for a long time. Based on the sheath that was provided for this piece I imagine that this was assembled in the 1930's. Normally there was no pamor on the real pieces. This is a giveaway on this one.

Hello Mick,
Thanks, your piece is shorter and sturdier than mine, but it looks "processed" indeed. Some of the pieces included in the book "Keris untuk Dunia" also have pamor, but are still classified as from tangguh Singosari....
Best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 9th July 2010, 01:15 AM

Here is an image of a genuine keris budho.

Mick's image also gives a good impression of what they look like. This example is just under 12" long from blade tip to pesi tip.

However, it is necessary to allow a reasonable degree of latitude in assessing whether a blade is genuinely a KB or not.

Erosion can alter the outline of the blade.

Some blades display quite refined features, others are basic.

Based upon my personal observations, I am not yet prepared to dismiss all apparently archaic blades that show some evidence of pamor, as forgeries, false, or creations designed to decieve. Yes, such creations do exist, but the pamor effect can be found in other forms of archaic blade that are not keris blades. Additionally, I am of the opinion that production of blades in the budho form continued well past the Early Classical Period, and probably they were still being produced into the 16th-17th centuries, a period far too early for production to occur for reason of the deception of "tourists" and collectors.

Genuinely archaic keris budho also occur in bronze.

Jean · 9th July 2010, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Here is an image of a genuine keris budho.

Additionally, I am of the opinion that production of blades in the budho form continued well past the Early Classical Period, and probably they were still being produced into the 16th-17th centuries, a period far too early for production to occur for reason of the deception of "tourists" and collectors.

Dear Alan,
Thank you for the picture of the genuine KB, a precious reference for us! Any personal opinion about when and where these krisses were first produced?
I share your opinion that these krisses may have continued to be made into the 16-17th centuries, and this could explain why some pieces have pamor or are in better condition than the original ones but without being recent fake pieces?
Best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 9th July 2010, 11:53 AM

The available evidence seems to indicate that a dagger with the salient features of a keris budho blade was in existence during the Early Classical Period in Central Jawa, that is, prior to approximately 1000AD.

Gustav · 21st June 2012, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Additionally, I am of the opinion that production of blades in the budho form continued well past the Early Classical Period, and probably they were still being produced into the 16th-17th centuries, a period far too early for production to occur for reason of the deception of "tourists" and collectors.

Here are pictures of an islamic era Keris Jalak Budho. They were taken by one of the most important early photographers in Dutch East Indies, Isidore van Kinsbergen, in 1863/1864. The description says "A kris with arabic inscription (steel and gold) from Garut" (West Java). It seems to have a polished surface, like many keris in old european collections.There is also a picture of lanceheads, which probably look recent (for 1863), which means they were still produced in such forms at this time.

High resolution pictures are to be find here:

http://www.geheugenvannederland.nl/?...:1403-3790-37B

http://www.geheugenvannederland.nl/?...unt=1&wst=kris

http://www.geheugenvannederland.nl/?...wst=lanspunten

You really can go into the details blowing them up.

tunggulametung · 22nd June 2012, 03:11 PM

Can't answer the question but

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Here are pictures of an islamic era Keris Jalak Budho....

8th July 2010, 04:50 PM	#3
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Jean Here is basicly what they look like. There has been a market for reproductions of this pieces for a long time. Based on the sheath that was provided for this piece I imagine that this was assembled in the 1930's. Normally there was no pamor on the real pieces. This is a giveaway on this one. Attached Images

9th July 2010, 01:15 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Here is an image of a genuine keris budho. Mick's image also gives a good impression of what they look like. This example is just under 12" long from blade tip to pesi tip. However, it is necessary to allow a reasonable degree of latitude in assessing whether a blade is genuinely a KB or not. Erosion can alter the outline of the blade. Some blades display quite refined features, others are basic. Based upon my personal observations, I am not yet prepared to dismiss all apparently archaic blades that show some evidence of pamor, as forgeries, false, or creations designed to decieve. Yes, such creations do exist, but the pamor effect can be found in other forms of archaic blade that are not keris blades. Additionally, I am of the opinion that production of blades in the budho form continued well past the Early Classical Period, and probably they were still being produced into the 16th-17th centuries, a period far too early for production to occur for reason of the deception of "tourists" and collectors. Genuinely archaic keris budho also occur in bronze. Attached Images

8th July 2010, 11:22 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Jean, to be brutally honest, my approach to tangguh varies according to the company I am in. If I'm in Jawa with gentlemen who are very traditional followers of Javanese culture and philosophy, I agree with everything that is said --- it is not my place to to attempt to lecture people on their own culture. Shut up. Listen. Learn. If I am with people who are convinced that they already know all there is to be known, I do the same thing:- Shut up. Listen. Learn -- or perhaps be mildly amused. If I am with gentlemen who can take a calm, balanced, and logical view of the world and all things in it, I am prepared to adopt the third way and attempt to justify my acceptance of this approach. As to an image of a typical keris budho, I do have a number of these and I am probably prepared to provide an image. Leave it with me, I'll see what I can do.

9th July 2010, 11:53 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	The available evidence seems to indicate that a dagger with the salient features of a keris budho blade was in existence during the Early Classical Period in Central Jawa, that is, prior to approximately 1000AD.