Sword for ID on SFI

tom hyle · 8th June 2005, 12:19 PM

I don't think it has anything to do with a nimcha (the shape of the grip is similar, but not the construction or the guard). The bolster with flat extension is as seen on bichok (yeah, I mixed all the spellings on purpose; yeah, that's a statement), yataghan, etc. (it seems quite distinct to me from both Berbese applied bolsters and E Asian habiki, etc.), but also similar to (for instance) piha kaetta. If the handle is solid brass, rather than wood covered with brass (and it looks solid?), then that suggests more Eastern than Western; certainly not Berber, and though the Bantus cast brass hilts, I think we can all agree this is not central African. The hilt construction and pommel remind me CLOSELY of Bagobo/T'boli sword hilts. The knucklebow is of the Hindoo type, and appears to be soldered on at the back end? (I will examine the other end more closely, too....) The pinky stall seems to me like a variation on the finger-pad/subhilt seen on Tartaric hilts going back to very ancient times, and is seen all around at least the Western end of Tartar influence (N Africa, E Europe, India). Isn't this a khanda blade? The tip of a khanda blade? Very khanda-like; surely there's a relation? It does not seem like anything I'd call a varient on a salwar yataghan, although I can see where a person would see a vague resemblance to kopis. The linked salwar yataghan has a variant of some kind of military hilt based on English (I think?) military regulations, while this appears to be a more entirely native design. I dunno; the more I look at the hilt, the more it looks like it was "constructed"; soldered up out of pieces that were probably cast? Still looks like pretty heavy metal, rather than the Kabyle sheet brass? Do you own this sword?
BTW, check that nimcha with the yelman; very similar blade to those seen on certain parang nabur; trade blades..?.....There are, as I've mentioned elsewhere, two distinct types of "nimcha", Moorocan and Swahili/Yemeni, but the two are fairly similar.
I suppose of all brass bolsters this brass bolster most reminds me of those seen on straight bladed chooras?

fearn · 8th June 2005, 02:00 PM

Tom,

Here's a scenario: take a khanda (or similar single-edged blade). Get the blade broken near the base (presumably in a fight). Have someone (possibly a whitesmith rather than a blacksmith) decide to rehilt the broken blade, since it's still pretty useful.

What do you have? A wide, single edged, sharp blade, with no tang. How do you secure it? Cast a brass handle around the fragment, with a big yelmen to secure the blade in the absence of a tang.

Now, about the decoration: either someone has commissioned this salvage operation, or the smith wanted to make something that looked good for resale or whatever.

The reason I'm assuming that a whitesmith (who doesn't work with iron) would do this is because a blacksmith would have reshaped the bottom of the blade. That huge yelmen to me looks like a way of holding the blade in the absence of a good tang. If one has the tools, building a tang would be a safer (and lighter) way of doing it. Alternatively, someone may have been sentimental about the original blade, and wanted to save the entire fragment, leaving the smith with the challenge of making a new hilt around the fragment.

Comments? This is a scenario, but it seems to explain some of the weird construction. If that handle is solid brass, that sword must weigh a metaphorical ton.

Fearn

Andy Davis · 8th June 2005, 02:37 PM

Well I have migrated over from SF, mainly because this sword, causing all the trouble, is mine.
To answer a few of your queries. Blade does have a very slight downward tilt and while 5cm at the hilt, is closer to 6cm at the point that it becomes double edged.
Hilt is very solid but hollow brass. One piece with no cast mold lines visable. You will also notice that there is a copper section set in the hole, through the back of the grip.
I'll attach another photo of the handle from underneath. Notice a hole, which appears to have been intentional, not general wear. Not visable, but there is another in the main grip. obscured here by the hand guard.
I'll try and get more photos online, as requested.
Good luck
Andy

8th June 2005, 12:19 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I don't think it has anything to do with a nimcha (the shape of the grip is similar, but not the construction or the guard). The bolster with flat extension is as seen on bichok (yeah, I mixed all the spellings on purpose; yeah, that's a statement), yataghan, etc. (it seems quite distinct to me from both Berbese applied bolsters and E Asian habiki, etc.), but also similar to (for instance) piha kaetta. If the handle is solid brass, rather than wood covered with brass (and it looks solid?), then that suggests more Eastern than Western; certainly not Berber, and though the Bantus cast brass hilts, I think we can all agree this is not central African. The hilt construction and pommel remind me CLOSELY of Bagobo/T'boli sword hilts. The knucklebow is of the Hindoo type, and appears to be soldered on at the back end? (I will examine the other end more closely, too....) The pinky stall seems to me like a variation on the finger-pad/subhilt seen on Tartaric hilts going back to very ancient times, and is seen all around at least the Western end of Tartar influence (N Africa, E Europe, India). Isn't this a khanda blade? The tip of a khanda blade? Very khanda-like; surely there's a relation? It does not seem like anything I'd call a varient on a salwar yataghan, although I can see where a person would see a vague resemblance to kopis. The linked salwar yataghan has a variant of some kind of military hilt based on English (I think?) military regulations, while this appears to be a more entirely native design. I dunno; the more I look at the hilt, the more it looks like it was "constructed"; soldered up out of pieces that were probably cast? Still looks like pretty heavy metal, rather than the Kabyle sheet brass? Do you own this sword? BTW, check that nimcha with the yelman; very similar blade to those seen on certain parang nabur; trade blades..?.....There are, as I've mentioned elsewhere, two distinct types of "nimcha", Moorocan and Swahili/Yemeni, but the two are fairly similar. I suppose of all brass bolsters this brass bolster most reminds me of those seen on straight bladed chooras? Last edited by tom hyle; 8th June 2005 at 12:29 PM.

8th June 2005, 02:37 PM	#3
Andy Davis Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: England, Northumberland Posts: 85	Cheers all Well I have migrated over from SF, mainly because this sword, causing all the trouble, is mine. To answer a few of your queries. Blade does have a very slight downward tilt and while 5cm at the hilt, is closer to 6cm at the point that it becomes double edged. Hilt is very solid but hollow brass. One piece with no cast mold lines visable. You will also notice that there is a copper section set in the hole, through the back of the grip. I'll attach another photo of the handle from underneath. Notice a hole, which appears to have been intentional, not general wear. Not visable, but there is another in the main grip. obscured here by the hand guard. I'll try and get more photos online, as requested. Good luck Andy Attached Images

8th June 2005, 02:00 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Tom, Here's a scenario: take a khanda (or similar single-edged blade). Get the blade broken near the base (presumably in a fight). Have someone (possibly a whitesmith rather than a blacksmith) decide to rehilt the broken blade, since it's still pretty useful. What do you have? A wide, single edged, sharp blade, with no tang. How do you secure it? Cast a brass handle around the fragment, with a big yelmen to secure the blade in the absence of a tang. Now, about the decoration: either someone has commissioned this salvage operation, or the smith wanted to make something that looked good for resale or whatever. The reason I'm assuming that a whitesmith (who doesn't work with iron) would do this is because a blacksmith would have reshaped the bottom of the blade. That huge yelmen to me looks like a way of holding the blade in the absence of a good tang. If one has the tools, building a tang would be a safer (and lighter) way of doing it. Alternatively, someone may have been sentimental about the original blade, and wanted to save the entire fragment, leaving the smith with the challenge of making a new hilt around the fragment. Comments? This is a scenario, but it seems to explain some of the weird construction. If that handle is solid brass, that sword must weigh a metaphorical ton. Fearn