Baskethilt

Andrew · 8th June 2005, 02:57 AM

Outstanding discussion, gentlemen. I'm enjoying this thread immensely.

Rivkin · 9th June 2005, 04:52 AM

I'm not the one to say anything about Masons, but just to make sure - afaik there is no possibility of this motto/motiff etc. been connected to anything cabbalistic. Strangely so I did actually see a "cabbalistic", an extremely high quality sword on ebay once.

It's probably better to say that any cabbalistic connection would have to be in a nth degree of remotness.

fernando · 9th June 2005, 07:53 PM

these are digital pictures of both little book and mentioned sword ( my scanner is broken ).
i wouldn't presume to cover such a complex theme like masonry and their self pretended connection to the templars, with all that implies. just remember that the cruzades saga generated the order of "poor knigths of christ"( 1128 ), after named "knights of the temple" ( templars ). when the pope clemente V banned the order in all countries in 1312, the portuguese king dom diniz, considering their achieved strenght, traded some trick with the pope and ended up keeping them, by renaming them "order of christ". this was a long shot, as this religious military order, headed by the best blood of portuguese nobles, like prince henry the navigator, were in the origin of the discoveries period, as from the XY century. the cross engraved in Jeff D sword must be the "cruz de cristo" ( christ cross ), a symbol brought from the templars gowns to the sails and armoury of the discovery soldiers.
whether the masonics descend and cultivate some of all the templars knowledge, be it intrinsecal, esoteric, you name it, is something that transcends me. some even say that templars still exist. i find this type of values, assumed by whomever, seven hundred years ago, only plausible if performed by history.
not to provoke a bottomless well, i'll stick to the little part of trying to find out the missing link in the swords motto engraving "no me saques ...", even a possible portuguese version of the text.
there are inumerous pages on this theme over here ... there must be some track.
sorry to be such a bore.

fernando · 9th June 2005, 07:58 PM

sorry, forgot to upload.
NO, IT WAS THE SIZE.

fernando · 9th June 2005, 10:30 PM

hi Jeff
is that sword the real thing? are we talking XVI century here? sorry for my ignorance.
but let's see: the cross ( no picture ) must be what i mentioned in the templar/masonic theme. the orb, most possibly the armilary orb ( esfera armilar ) was king dom manuel symbol ( 1495-1521 ).
he had it in all the country castle doors and in the armoury of the forces he sent out aboard the first long route discovery ships. eventualy both his orb and the templar cross appeared together in arms, armour, flags and i think sails of the time.the word portugal in "viva de portugal" must be portvgal, if you look better at the blade. the v for an u was dropped from the portuguese ( and castilian ... ) "just the other day". but the wording still doesn't make sense as a phrase. something is abnormal here.
i have picture of a 1642 portuguese extendeable blade rapier ( to ilude the blade length allowance ) quoted to have inscribed " viva el rey de portugael ". this pattern went on for a couple centuries, with and without the name of the king. in another picture, and with all the doubts for my non skilled eye, i see a sword similar to yours, named as a "combat (european ) sword of the second quarter XVI century", a beautyfull and emblematic portuguese specimen.
being genuine, your sword is not invalueable, but on the way to that.
keep well

fernando · 9th June 2005, 11:36 PM

how about this ?
http://www.arscives.com/cejunior/portarmour/007.htm

midelburgo · 10th June 2005, 12:13 PM

Hello,
I was just passing by and saw the current discussion...
Very interesting the arscives 1991 site. Lots of interesting swords there, although some miscatalogation too. For example number 5 is not African but a very specific portuguese form from late XVth early XVIth. Some "Portuguese made" I find discutible on the other hand.

But what brought me here. I am also intrigued by the motto "no me embaines..." and would be very interesting to find a XVI century sword with it. However I consider the example provided to be a remounting with a newer (Late XVII to early XVIIIth , possibly genoese) blade.

About Portuguese patriotic mottoes, they appear for example even in official Spanish military models (like what later would be the called 1728 model, an example at Poldi-Pezzoli, Milan), and cannot give clues about nationalities.

Javier

fernando · 11th June 2005, 09:46 PM

hi midelburg
the miscatalogation of these examples does not end with the sources appointing to the earlier period this motto was engraved on blades. same with the language used, maybe latin came first.
when the spanish conquistadores founded bogota in 1538, their leader gonzalo jimenez de quesada was using a toledo sword with the motto no me saques sin razon ... a code of the followers of el cid ( quoting jose maria vergara y vergara in fundacion de bogota ).
el cid lived on 1043-1099. if this were a true story, contradicts the prior assumption that the motto was originated on the templars oath, as this order was founded later.
the missing link prevails

9th June 2005, 07:58 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	sorry, forgot to upload. NO, IT WAS THE SIZE. Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 9th June 2005 at 08:28 PM.

10th June 2005, 12:13 PM	#7
midelburgo Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	embaines Hello, I was just passing by and saw the current discussion... Very interesting the arscives 1991 site. Lots of interesting swords there, although some miscatalogation too. For example number 5 is not African but a very specific portuguese form from late XVth early XVIth. Some "Portuguese made" I find discutible on the other hand. But what brought me here. I am also intrigued by the motto "no me embaines..." and would be very interesting to find a XVI century sword with it. However I consider the example provided to be a remounting with a newer (Late XVII to early XVIIIth , possibly genoese) blade. About Portuguese patriotic mottoes, they appear for example even in official Spanish military models (like what later would be the called 1728 model, an example at Poldi-Pezzoli, Milan), and cannot give clues about nationalities. Javier

8th June 2005, 02:57 AM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Outstanding discussion, gentlemen. I'm enjoying this thread immensely.

9th June 2005, 04:52 AM	#2
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I'm not the one to say anything about Masons, but just to make sure - afaik there is no possibility of this motto/motiff etc. been connected to anything cabbalistic. Strangely so I did actually see a "cabbalistic", an extremely high quality sword on ebay once. It's probably better to say that any cabbalistic connection would have to be in a nth degree of remotness.

9th June 2005, 07:53 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	these are digital pictures of both little book and mentioned sword ( my scanner is broken ). i wouldn't presume to cover such a complex theme like masonry and their self pretended connection to the templars, with all that implies. just remember that the cruzades saga generated the order of "poor knigths of christ"( 1128 ), after named "knights of the temple" ( templars ). when the pope clemente V banned the order in all countries in 1312, the portuguese king dom diniz, considering their achieved strenght, traded some trick with the pope and ended up keeping them, by renaming them "order of christ". this was a long shot, as this religious military order, headed by the best blood of portuguese nobles, like prince henry the navigator, were in the origin of the discoveries period, as from the XY century. the cross engraved in Jeff D sword must be the "cruz de cristo" ( christ cross ), a symbol brought from the templars gowns to the sails and armoury of the discovery soldiers. whether the masonics descend and cultivate some of all the templars knowledge, be it intrinsecal, esoteric, you name it, is something that transcends me. some even say that templars still exist. i find this type of values, assumed by whomever, seven hundred years ago, only plausible if performed by history. not to provoke a bottomless well, i'll stick to the little part of trying to find out the missing link in the swords motto engraving "no me saques ...", even a possible portuguese version of the text. there are inumerous pages on this theme over here ... there must be some track. sorry to be such a bore.

9th June 2005, 10:30 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	hi Jeff is that sword the real thing? are we talking XVI century here? sorry for my ignorance. but let's see: the cross ( no picture ) must be what i mentioned in the templar/masonic theme. the orb, most possibly the armilary orb ( esfera armilar ) was king dom manuel symbol ( 1495-1521 ). he had it in all the country castle doors and in the armoury of the forces he sent out aboard the first long route discovery ships. eventualy both his orb and the templar cross appeared together in arms, armour, flags and i think sails of the time.the word portugal in "viva de portugal" must be portvgal, if you look better at the blade. the v for an u was dropped from the portuguese ( and castilian ... ) "just the other day". but the wording still doesn't make sense as a phrase. something is abnormal here. i have picture of a 1642 portuguese extendeable blade rapier ( to ilude the blade length allowance ) quoted to have inscribed " viva el rey de portugael ". this pattern went on for a couple centuries, with and without the name of the king. in another picture, and with all the doubts for my non skilled eye, i see a sword similar to yours, named as a "combat (european ) sword of the second quarter XVI century", a beautyfull and emblematic portuguese specimen. being genuine, your sword is not invalueable, but on the way to that. keep well

9th June 2005, 11:36 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	how about this ? http://www.arscives.com/cejunior/portarmour/007.htm

11th June 2005, 09:46 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	hi midelburg the miscatalogation of these examples does not end with the sources appointing to the earlier period this motto was engraved on blades. same with the language used, maybe latin came first. when the spanish conquistadores founded bogota in 1538, their leader gonzalo jimenez de quesada was using a toledo sword with the motto no me saques sin razon ... a code of the followers of el cid ( quoting jose maria vergara y vergara in fundacion de bogota ). el cid lived on 1043-1099. if this were a true story, contradicts the prior assumption that the motto was originated on the templars oath, as this order was founded later. the missing link prevails