Sword for ID on SFI

ariel · 7th June 2005, 06:46 PM

Is it just my impression, or is the blade slightly down-curved, yataghan-like?
Sossun pattah blade?

fearn · 7th June 2005, 08:01 PM

Could this be some sort of interpretation of a khyber knife? I realize that it's not the "right" shape, but it is in the right size range.

Fearn

Rick · 7th June 2005, 08:15 PM

I don't think the decoration is N.African in style .
That leaves Indo Persia and the NW frontier as Tim has said .
Those look like architectural details behind the Peacock , those elements remind me of some N. persian rugs I have seen .
Not to mention the Peacock Throne of Persia .
I can see the Indian influence in the knuckle guard but the hilt is real oddball .

Whatever it is I like it !!

RSWORD · 7th June 2005, 10:28 PM

When I first saw thing thing it sort of reminded me of some Naga swords from the Assam region. They have a sword with cast bronze or brass hilt with knucklebow and large chopper like blade. Although this example is different than the "typical" Naga sword that I am speaking, it isn't too far a stretch to be an unusual variant. I would love to see the blade up close on this example to see if it might be an Indian import and watered or if it had some of the more Tibetan-like watering you more often see on blades from this region.

Conogre · 8th June 2005, 04:35 AM

While the nimchas are N, African, they are common as far as Iraq.....the "arch" at the Bagdad airport are two huge crossed nimchas, I believe (I would have expected Saifs ), which may account for the styling partially.
As to the peacock, that style is unusual for Indian art, and almost looks reminiscent of a Guinea Fowl.
Since it's a chopper, on a scale of 1-10, I'd have to give it a 15 **grin**
That is definitely unique, and appears undoubtedly to be user oriented.
Sweet, any way you look at it.
Justin commented that the little "hook" in the inner hilt reminds him of many Turkish pieces, just to add to the confusion.
Mike

Aqtai · 8th June 2005, 11:03 AM

Going back to the pictures I posted above, Morrocan nimchas also have knuckleguards. Isn't it possible that this is a nimcha who decoration has been influenced by imported Iranian weapons?

I have seen at least one book that called the Iranians "the armourers of the Islamic World", or words to that effect. There is little doubt that from the 17th century onwards, the Ottomans frequently used imported Iranian arms and armour, so why not not North Africans? After all Morroco's neighbors Algeria and Tunisia were both part of the Ottoman Empire.

tom hyle · 8th June 2005, 12:19 PM

I don't think it has anything to do with a nimcha (the shape of the grip is similar, but not the construction or the guard). The bolster with flat extension is as seen on bichok (yeah, I mixed all the spellings on purpose; yeah, that's a statement), yataghan, etc. (it seems quite distinct to me from both Berbese applied bolsters and E Asian habiki, etc.), but also similar to (for instance) piha kaetta. If the handle is solid brass, rather than wood covered with brass (and it looks solid?), then that suggests more Eastern than Western; certainly not Berber, and though the Bantus cast brass hilts, I think we can all agree this is not central African. The hilt construction and pommel remind me CLOSELY of Bagobo/T'boli sword hilts. The knucklebow is of the Hindoo type, and appears to be soldered on at the back end? (I will examine the other end more closely, too....) The pinky stall seems to me like a variation on the finger-pad/subhilt seen on Tartaric hilts going back to very ancient times, and is seen all around at least the Western end of Tartar influence (N Africa, E Europe, India). Isn't this a khanda blade? The tip of a khanda blade? Very khanda-like; surely there's a relation? It does not seem like anything I'd call a varient on a salwar yataghan, although I can see where a person would see a vague resemblance to kopis. The linked salwar yataghan has a variant of some kind of military hilt based on English (I think?) military regulations, while this appears to be a more entirely native design. I dunno; the more I look at the hilt, the more it looks like it was "constructed"; soldered up out of pieces that were probably cast? Still looks like pretty heavy metal, rather than the Kabyle sheet brass? Do you own this sword?
BTW, check that nimcha with the yelman; very similar blade to those seen on certain parang nabur; trade blades..?.....There are, as I've mentioned elsewhere, two distinct types of "nimcha", Moorocan and Swahili/Yemeni, but the two are fairly similar.
I suppose of all brass bolsters this brass bolster most reminds me of those seen on straight bladed chooras?

8th June 2005, 12:19 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I don't think it has anything to do with a nimcha (the shape of the grip is similar, but not the construction or the guard). The bolster with flat extension is as seen on bichok (yeah, I mixed all the spellings on purpose; yeah, that's a statement), yataghan, etc. (it seems quite distinct to me from both Berbese applied bolsters and E Asian habiki, etc.), but also similar to (for instance) piha kaetta. If the handle is solid brass, rather than wood covered with brass (and it looks solid?), then that suggests more Eastern than Western; certainly not Berber, and though the Bantus cast brass hilts, I think we can all agree this is not central African. The hilt construction and pommel remind me CLOSELY of Bagobo/T'boli sword hilts. The knucklebow is of the Hindoo type, and appears to be soldered on at the back end? (I will examine the other end more closely, too....) The pinky stall seems to me like a variation on the finger-pad/subhilt seen on Tartaric hilts going back to very ancient times, and is seen all around at least the Western end of Tartar influence (N Africa, E Europe, India). Isn't this a khanda blade? The tip of a khanda blade? Very khanda-like; surely there's a relation? It does not seem like anything I'd call a varient on a salwar yataghan, although I can see where a person would see a vague resemblance to kopis. The linked salwar yataghan has a variant of some kind of military hilt based on English (I think?) military regulations, while this appears to be a more entirely native design. I dunno; the more I look at the hilt, the more it looks like it was "constructed"; soldered up out of pieces that were probably cast? Still looks like pretty heavy metal, rather than the Kabyle sheet brass? Do you own this sword? BTW, check that nimcha with the yelman; very similar blade to those seen on certain parang nabur; trade blades..?.....There are, as I've mentioned elsewhere, two distinct types of "nimcha", Moorocan and Swahili/Yemeni, but the two are fairly similar. I suppose of all brass bolsters this brass bolster most reminds me of those seen on straight bladed chooras? Last edited by tom hyle; 8th June 2005 at 12:29 PM.

7th June 2005, 06:46 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Is it just my impression, or is the blade slightly down-curved, yataghan-like? Sossun pattah blade?

7th June 2005, 08:01 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Could this be some sort of interpretation of a khyber knife? I realize that it's not the "right" shape, but it is in the right size range. Fearn

7th June 2005, 08:15 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I don't think the decoration is N.African in style . That leaves Indo Persia and the NW frontier as Tim has said . Those look like architectural details behind the Peacock , those elements remind me of some N. persian rugs I have seen . Not to mention the Peacock Throne of Persia . I can see the Indian influence in the knuckle guard but the hilt is real oddball . Whatever it is I like it !!

7th June 2005, 10:28 PM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	When I first saw thing thing it sort of reminded me of some Naga swords from the Assam region. They have a sword with cast bronze or brass hilt with knucklebow and large chopper like blade. Although this example is different than the "typical" Naga sword that I am speaking, it isn't too far a stretch to be an unusual variant. I would love to see the blade up close on this example to see if it might be an Indian import and watered or if it had some of the more Tibetan-like watering you more often see on blades from this region.

8th June 2005, 04:35 AM	#5
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	While the nimchas are N, African, they are common as far as Iraq.....the "arch" at the Bagdad airport are two huge crossed nimchas, I believe (I would have expected Saifs ), which may account for the styling partially. As to the peacock, that style is unusual for Indian art, and almost looks reminiscent of a Guinea Fowl. Since it's a chopper, on a scale of 1-10, I'd have to give it a 15 grin That is definitely unique, and appears undoubtedly to be user oriented. Sweet, any way you look at it. Justin commented that the little "hook" in the inner hilt reminds him of many Turkish pieces, just to add to the confusion. Mike

8th June 2005, 11:03 AM	#6
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Going back to the pictures I posted above, Morrocan nimchas also have knuckleguards. Isn't it possible that this is a nimcha who decoration has been influenced by imported Iranian weapons? I have seen at least one book that called the Iranians "the armourers of the Islamic World", or words to that effect. There is little doubt that from the 17th century onwards, the Ottomans frequently used imported Iranian arms and armour, so why not not North Africans? After all Morroco's neighbors Algeria and Tunisia were both part of the Ottoman Empire.