Thai Kreis? Thai forum Members?

[A. G. Maisey]

The poor old keris.

Everybody wants a piece of him.

Guess that's what happens when you become a Rock Star --- everybody wants to claim you for their own.

Russell Crowe is an Aussie, John Lennon was a Canadian, and Bob Dylan was born in Ireland --- betcha didn't know all that, didja?

The keris originated in the Dong Son Culture?

The Dong Son culture was a bronze age culture that existed from about 1000BC to about the beginning of the Current Era.

Bronze age.

They were skilled bronze casters, and they made little cast bronze daggers with figural hilts, not dissimilar in form to the keris sajen ( keris majapahit).

For a long time many people were inclined to believe that the Modern Keris, that is, the keris in the form that we accept now as a keris, originated from the keris sajen:- they believed that the keris sajen was the earliest form of keris. The principal evidence in support of this theory was the finding of a keris sajen under one of the stupas of the Borobudur.

It is possible that there is a similar concept at work in the fabric that supported the Dong Son bronze age dagger, and that still supports the keris sajen, however, this must at the present time be considered as a separate development.

Rather than the keris sajen giving birth to the modern keris, it is much more likely that the keris sajen came upon the scene later than the keris in its modern form.

All the evidence that has been produced to date places the origin of the keris firmly in the early classical period of Jawa, that is, Central Jawa, pre-1000AD.

The keris in its modern form appears certain to have developed in East Jawa during the period 1000AD to about 1400AD.

During the 14th -15th centuries, the dominant culture in maritime south east Asia was the Majapahit culture. This culture established trade links and political alliances all over S.E.Asia. It is logically probable that given the iconic position of the keris in Majapahit culture, this same culture was primarily responsible for the spread of the keris throughout S.E. Asia.

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The poor old keris.

Everybody wants a piece of him.

Guess that's what happens when you become a Rock Star --- everybody wants to claim you for their own.

Russell Crowe is an Aussie, John Lennon was a Canadian, and Bob Dylan was born in Ireland --- betcha didn't know all that, didja?

The keris originated in the Dong Son Culture?

The Dong Son culture was a bronze age culture that existed from about 1000BC to about the beginning of the Current Era.

Bronze age.

They were skilled bronze casters, and they made little cast bronze daggers with figural hilts, not dissimilar in form to the keris sajen ( keris majapahit).

For a long time many people were inclined to believe that the Modern Keris, that is, the keris in the form that we accept now as a keris, originated from the keris sajen:- they believed that the keris sajen was the earliest form of keris. The principal evidence in support of this theory was the finding of a keris sajen under one of the stupas of the Borobudur.

It is possible that there is a similar concept at work in the fabric that supported the Dong Son bronze age dagger, and that still supports the keris sajen, however, this must at the present time be considered as a separate development.

Rather than the keris sajen giving birth to the modern keris, it is much more likely that the keris sajen came upon the scene later than the keris in its modern form.

All the evidence that has been produced to date places the origin of the keris firmly in the early classical period of Jawa, that is, Central Jawa, pre-1000AD.

The keris in its modern form appears certain to have developed in East Jawa during the period 1000AD to about 1400AD.

During the 14th -15th centuries, the dominant culture in maritime south east Asia was the Majapahit culture. This culture established trade links and political alliances all over S.E.Asia. It is logically probable that given the iconic position of the keris in Majapahit culture, this same culture was primarily responsible for the spread of the keris throughout S.E. Asia.

Thanks for the quick history...I definitely need to read more on the histories of SEA in addition to the few counties I primarily collect from....has anyone read Southeast Asian Warfare, 1300-1900 by Michael Charney? It's one that looks interesting...but expensive.

[DAHenkel]

Nakhon Si Thammarat was also ethnically a Malay kingdom although it was a vassal state of Sukhothai and later Ayuthaya and played a key role in subjugating much of Langkasuka to Tai control. Its Malay name was Ligor (pronounced Luh-GORE). Its traditional weapons are very much part of the Malay world including the rare and beautiful parang Pattalung - a weapon I have only seen but do not have pictures of. Its related to the parang Pattani but has a longer handle and is reminiscent of the panabas.

Ethnic Tai are not keris bearing although there are many war prizes in Bangkok today. Just go to the military museum and you will see many kerises there. Many Malays from Pattani were also re-settled in the Ayuthaya region and remain a distinct minority there today. Most are only partially assimilated into the contemporary Thai identity.

The Cham were also reputed to be keris bearing although today no authentic examples have surfaced.

[PenangsangII]

sometimes its not because of "war prizes' alone.... Most Southeast Asians believe in magical properties in many sacred items, keris included....

i would believe the Chief of Police depicted in the photo, bore the keris as "Sipat Kandhel".....

[Laowang]

I can find no clear evidence regarding Khun Phan's ethnic identity (at least in English); given his apparent Buddhist religion, it's likely he was ethnic Thai. However, the cities of Nakhon Si Thammarat (Ligor), Songkhla, and Patani were all ethnically mixed (Thais, Malays, and Chinese), and in that milieu it is likely he would have viewed the keris as an object of magical power, as PenangsangII has suggested.

It seems clear from both scholarly sources (and the opinions of contributors in this forum) that to the degree keris culture exists within the borders of the Thai nation, it exists because of ethnic Malays who are now part of the Thai state. There are, of course, contemporary Thai collectors of keris, just as there are many collectors of keris in this forum who are not ethnic Malays.

[Nathaniel]

Originally Posted by Laowang

I can find no clear evidence regarding Khun Phan's ethnic identity (at least in English); given his apparent Buddhist religion, it's likely he was ethnic Thai. However, the cities of Nakhon Si Thammarat (Ligor), Songkhla, and Patani were all ethnically mixed (Thais, Malays, and Chinese), and in that milieu it is likely he would have viewed the keris as an object of magical power, as PenangsangII has suggested.

It seems clear from both scholarly sources (and the opinions of contributors in this forum) that to the degree keris culture exists within the borders of the Thai nation, it exists because of ethnic Malays who are now part of the Thai state.

Good point Laowang

There has definitely been intermarriage between different tribes, religions, etc. Many of us are mixed mutt's I'm Chinese, Dutch, English & Irish.... Many Thai nationals are have some Chinese blood in them from one side or both. I know many Thai who are mix of several groups...Mon, Lao, Chinese, Thai, Tai Yai, Tai Lue, Hmong, Shan, Malay, Khmer...so then you might find a mix of customs & tools used...plus just even just plan borrowing/ adaptation as many have suggested...if you find a better rat trap, then use it

[DAHenkel]

I did not mean to imply that the Tai living in Nakhon dont keep and wear keris. For that matter anywhere else. Clearly though they adopted them from the Malays in the south.