Need example of Pamors: Meteor, Luwu, and modern Nickel

[A. G. Maisey]

Where Jerzy found wootz it had been used for a gonjo, and the pattern was still present.

However, there is a very rare type of "pamor" that I have only seen a few times, and it bears all the characteristics of wootz. These blades were, of course, not submitted to metallurgical analysis, but bearing in mind the fact that such analysis has revealed the use of wootz in Javanese blades, I believe it is reasonable to accept that in a case where a Javanese blade looks like wootz, it very probably is wootz.

[rasdan]

Ok Alan. Thanks for you explanation. I'm having such a hard time sorting out different types of iron that had been used particularly in Peninsular kelengan keris. Since traditional references are very limited, i think metallurgy is the answer in determining quality of these kerises. Again, thank you for your help.

[A. G. Maisey]

Rasdan, in my opinion you are chasing ghosts if you are trying to identify and classify the various types of iron that are listed in old handbooks. In the lists I have there are many, many types listed, along with extremely subjective descriptions. The appearance of iron depends on a number of factors, such as the amount and intensity of forging and welding, the degree of erosion, the type and condition of the etch, the type and condition of the stain --- and so on.

To take an old, nondescript blade in less than pristine condition, and then attempt to classify that iron in accordance with the descriptions found in the handbooks is almost a totally futile pursuit.

You certainly need to be able to identify high quality, dense iron, and to gauge the degree of porosity in iron, but to go further than this is to a large degree only self deception.

Forget trying to name the material and concentrate on gaining skill in identifying quality and identifying rubbish.

This opinion is my own opinion, and I have no intention of forcing it on others, nor of arguing in its defence. Everybody can believe what they will.

However, I, and anybody else with a degree of skill in forge work and etching and staining ferric materials, can demonstrate just how easy it is to change the visual appearance of iron.

Metallurgy can provide analyses and a metallurgist who is trained in historical metallurgy can tell quite a lot about material with laboratory techniques, but that does not advance the cause of a collector or student of the keris who needs to be able to look at a blade, often in very unfavourable conditions, and make a judgement as to how much money he is prepared to pay for it.For this we need to be able to look at a blade and gauge the quality of the material in the blade. In the most simple of terms, this comes down to dense, well packed material, no porosity, no forging cracks indicating hot shortness, which in turn will indicate inadequate washing, and the potential for porosity with erosion.Blades are not always in good stain, so colour is not always useful, and you really don't know what the correct colour is until you do the stain yourself, or have it done by a competent professional.Again, there is no substitute for hands on experience.

[Neo]

I am busy taking notes ... excellent follow-up, Rasdan and Mr. Maisey

[PenangsangII]

Alan, thank you very much for the free lesson on metallurgy, and thanks Rasdan for addressing this "pig iron" phenomenon.

However, I feel I dont quite gauge what Alan had said. It is or it is not suitable for "pig iron" to be made baja slorok or be made keris keleng?

[A. G. Maisey]

Iron sands or other raw source of iron is smelted and the product of that smelt is pig iron.

Pig iron is refined and becomes wrought iron.

Wrought iron contains varying quantities of carbon. In its raw state it contains too much carbon to be useful, so we reduce the carbon by washing the iron, and getting rid of the other impurities as well, like slag, what we finish up with is wrought iron with a very low carbon content, but we can then add carbon to this low carbon content iron and turn it into steel

Wrought iron can be carburised to become steel, but the carburisation process only produces small quantities of steel. The lamination of carburised iron (steel) and wrought iron provided a tough material that held an edge :- ie, "mechanical damascus".

So:-

iron bearing raw material > smelt > pig iron > wrought iron > steel

There is a lot of information on iron and steel technology published on the net. Heaps of stuff. If you have an interest in this all you need to do is use google.

You could start with this article:-

http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/rawdatau...005afb_353.pdf

[Jussi M.]

Classic?