Ethnographic bayonets question

Berkley · 22nd June 2010, 12:33 AM

British (primarily British Indian) manufacture of kukris in large quantities was a 20th century phenomenon necessitated by the large number of Gurkhas who served in both World Wars. The extremely rare "kukri" bayonets were genuine Nepalese ethnographic weapons produced in the 19th century.
From Guns of the Gurkhas by John Walter:

Quote:

[T]he chupi bayonets (the so-called 'kukri bayonets')...have attained a notoriety that was completely disproportionate to their numbers.... Variations in detail suggest that the bayonets were made individually, over a considerable period of time.... Most have the suggestion of a 'T'-back, occasionally with narrow fullers immediately beneath the back. The sockets have 'L'-slots and East India Company-type springs...that enabled most of the bayonets to fit a selection of Nepalese-made...barrels. This reveals that they date from the flintlock era. However, the socket diameters varied...and it would have been necessary to match individual bayonets to individual muskets...

Quote:

When Jang Bahadur left to visit Britain late in 1850, at least one witness testified that the prime minister had 'stepped into the verandah overlooking the garden [of his lodgings in Calcutta], on the broad path of which a long line of bright and terrible bayonets (shaped like the Kookree, or Nepaulese knife - a very handsome carved [sic] weapon glittered in the sun...' This confirms that the men of the escort were carrying Windus-type flintlock muskets and chupi bayonets, but it is believed that only a handful of battalions were equipped with them.

Bryan.H · 22nd June 2010, 04:16 PM

I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing you mean, but I saw this on Fagan's site a while ago. I've never seen one in museums or books before.

18TH CENTURY INDIAN BAYONET, SANGIN, FOR MATCHLOCK MUSKET

http://faganarms.com/recently_sold.aspx

Bryan.H · 22nd June 2010, 04:31 PM

The Zombie killer!

Aleksey G. · 22nd June 2010, 04:58 PM

Guys, thank you for your posts, pretty cool stuff.
Does zombie killer run on gas? doesnt seem like there is a lot of gastank there.
actually now I see some wiring so probably a battery
************************
It doesn seem like there is a lot of information out there on ethnographic bayonets, or even just ehnograhic blades being afixed on the rifles.
I was hoping for some juicy pictures of moro krisses, yataghans, or maybe even an occasional afgani khyber knife crudely afixed on the rifles

Jim McDougall · 22nd June 2010, 05:32 PM

Getting back to the question, as we all know, material on ethnographic weapons is in itself challenging to find, let alone discussion on the use of the bayonet or attaching ethnographic edged weapons to gun blades in this manner. I think it is important to remember that for the most part, the use of firearms was a European developed situation militarily (despite the obviously well known circumstances of early development in China etc.). In this same context came the use of the bayonet with the use of the gun.

In most ethnographic cases in colonial conflicts, native warriors primary weapons were edged weapons, bow and arrow, spears etc. These were of course weapons readily available, did not require ammunition or powder, nor was training in thier use typically present. Naturally, there was a distinct awareness of the advantages of firearms, and efforts were made to acquire these weapons, as shown by capture of Remington guns by the Mahdists in the Sudan.
In most cases ethnographically, where firearms were indeed used, the use of secondary weapons such as yataghans, daggers and various sidearms were independant of the firearm, which would have been seen as an encumbrance when using the other weapons. There were no drills for bayonet type fighting, so these would not have been so applied.
In Arabia, the use of matchlock guns is known to have been traditionally maintained into the 20th century by the Bedouins, but as far as I know, there are no known examples of bayonets or weapons used as such. The sword in much of Bedouin warfare, remained a primary weapon for combat late into the century despite the use of the matchlock in a tactical sense.

In the case of the Indian matchlock bayonets, these are indeed mentioned in books (Elgood, p.165); Egerton #353 and a Wallis & Wallis sale in 2003 had one with red and white horsehair plume. Tipu Sultan's forces are known to have had some of these, decorated much in his fashion. It should be pointed out that these seem to have developed from European contact with EIC forces, and emulating the use of bayonets on thier guns.

Excellent post Berkeley!!! on the Nepalese 'chupi' , and again, these were developed in response to exposure to British military drill, and while they are 'ethnographic' in the sense that they are exclusive to these Gurkha units, they are produced in military fashion using the L lock and EIC type springs.

22nd June 2010, 04:16 PM	#2
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	I'm not sure if this is the sort of thing you mean, but I saw this on Fagan's site a while ago. I've never seen one in museums or books before. 18TH CENTURY INDIAN BAYONET, SANGIN, FOR MATCHLOCK MUSKET http://faganarms.com/recently_sold.aspx

22nd June 2010, 04:31 PM	#3
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	And now for something completely different!!! The Zombie killer!

22nd June 2010, 04:58 PM	#4
Aleksey G. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 70	Guys, thank you for your posts, pretty cool stuff. Does zombie killer run on gas? doesnt seem like there is a lot of gastank there. actually now I see some wiring so probably a battery ************************ It doesn seem like there is a lot of information out there on ethnographic bayonets, or even just ehnograhic blades being afixed on the rifles. I was hoping for some juicy pictures of moro krisses, yataghans, or maybe even an occasional afgani khyber knife crudely afixed on the rifles

22nd June 2010, 05:32 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Getting back to the question, as we all know, material on ethnographic weapons is in itself challenging to find, let alone discussion on the use of the bayonet or attaching ethnographic edged weapons to gun blades in this manner. I think it is important to remember that for the most part, the use of firearms was a European developed situation militarily (despite the obviously well known circumstances of early development in China etc.). In this same context came the use of the bayonet with the use of the gun. In most ethnographic cases in colonial conflicts, native warriors primary weapons were edged weapons, bow and arrow, spears etc. These were of course weapons readily available, did not require ammunition or powder, nor was training in thier use typically present. Naturally, there was a distinct awareness of the advantages of firearms, and efforts were made to acquire these weapons, as shown by capture of Remington guns by the Mahdists in the Sudan. In most cases ethnographically, where firearms were indeed used, the use of secondary weapons such as yataghans, daggers and various sidearms were independant of the firearm, which would have been seen as an encumbrance when using the other weapons. There were no drills for bayonet type fighting, so these would not have been so applied. In Arabia, the use of matchlock guns is known to have been traditionally maintained into the 20th century by the Bedouins, but as far as I know, there are no known examples of bayonets or weapons used as such. The sword in much of Bedouin warfare, remained a primary weapon for combat late into the century despite the use of the matchlock in a tactical sense. In the case of the Indian matchlock bayonets, these are indeed mentioned in books (Elgood, p.165); Egerton #353 and a Wallis & Wallis sale in 2003 had one with red and white horsehair plume. Tipu Sultan's forces are known to have had some of these, decorated much in his fashion. It should be pointed out that these seem to have developed from European contact with EIC forces, and emulating the use of bayonets on thier guns. Excellent post Berkeley!!! on the Nepalese 'chupi' , and again, these were developed in response to exposure to British military drill, and while they are 'ethnographic' in the sense that they are exclusive to these Gurkha units, they are produced in military fashion using the L lock and EIC type springs.